| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | "Safe" email greetings for international English? Thread poster: Niina Lahokoski
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XXXphxxx (X) 
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:28
Portuguese to English
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| Misunderstanding | Jun 24, 2013 |
Josephine Cassar wrote:
I do not suppose Ms applies to divorced only though, so I find it quite safe unless you know the marital status.
Sorry if I was unclear. I wasn't suggesting this was its only meaning, only that it has this meaning and the assumption by a fair number of people if you use it is that you are divorced. In Middle England at least people are still very traditional on the Miss/Mrs front.
[Edited at 2013-06-24 12:15 GMT]
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 14:28
French to English
It has come to mean "divorced" simply because it's mainly divorced women who have a problem with Miss or Mrs since they are neither spinsters or married.
But it's also used by women who don't want to broadcast their marital status and quite frankly I fail to see why anyone should do so in a business setting, unless work is simply a place to find a husband, which is not professional of course.
| | | | Jenn Mercer
United States
Local time: 08:28
Member (2009)
French to English
| Subtleties count | Jun 24, 2013 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
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Why do people object to "Hello" though? I find it a totally neutral form of address. And known in many countries.
To my mind, "hello" is an oral greeting and seems odd in letters or email. I don't know that I have ever seen this written down as a rule, but I do know that it is seen as less formal.
| | | | | Perhaps a passing fad? | Jun 24, 2013 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
On the subject of "Ms" (albeit marginally off-topic): while I have always used it as my own title and I use it as a generic term for all women, it has recently come to my attention that it is now commonly understood (at least in Britain) to refer to a woman who is divorced.
Perhaps it might just be a passing fad? From what I've heard, it's been around since like renaissance.
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Phil Hand
China
Local time: 20:28
Chinese to English
| "Hi" seems quite standard now | Jun 25, 2013 |
For a first or more formal email, I'd start with Dear... and end with Yours...
But with a number of agencies the standard opening that we use seems now to be: Hi, Phil... I'm fine with that when there's no need for great formality.
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Phil Hand wrote:
For a first or more formal email, I'd start with Dear... and end with Yours...
But with a number of agencies the standard opening that we use seems now to be: Hi, Phil... I'm fine with that when there's no need for great formality.
True, but what I notice sometimes is very formal writing following that 'hi'. Not necessarily formal English, just a formal way of expression where the informality of individual words used might not even matter. So it's basically another piece of arm's length bureaucracy between independent counterparties, but it uses hi's, first names, abbreviated signing-off lines etc. That's something I particularly dislike. I've considered putting it in writing in my ToS that if you want to address me by my first name, you have to act like we're pals; if you want to go formal on me, then my name is my surname – we can get colloquial after starting formally, but we can't get formal after starting colloquially.
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Edit: Perhaps one more thing, a marginal gloss as it were. The language matters. In a PLEN context we'd sometimes use first names in English with people who'd be Mister John or Mrs Ann/Miss Kate in direct translation from Polish. After that kind of thing taking place, it doesn't really make much sense to continue with the Mr/Ms in Polish, but when I receive mail in 2nd person singular from a stranger clearly born some 10 years after me, I'm not impressed. In fact, it's really hard to get over 2nd sg/first names in a first business contact between people of similar ages, in Polish, no matter that's the standard fare when English is the language used. So perhaps my dislike of formality in 'Dear John/Kate/Tom/Jane/Whatever' e-mail is an interference, after all. Still, I shall continue to scoff at that.
[Edited at 2013-06-25 06:03 GMT]
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:28
Hebrew to English
| Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 13:28
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| I think you're being too harsh, Łukasz | Jun 25, 2013 |
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz wrote:
what I notice sometimes is very formal writing following that 'hi'. Not necessarily formal English, just a formal way of expression where the informality of individual words used might not even matter. So it's basically another piece of arm's length bureaucracy between independent counterparties, but it uses hi's, first names, abbreviated signing-off lines etc. That's something I particularly dislike. I've considered putting it in writing in my ToS that if you want to address me by my first name, you have to act like we're pals; if you want to go formal on me, then my name is my surname – we can get colloquial after starting formally, but we can't get formal after starting colloquially.
I know your grasp of English is equivalent to a native speaker's, and a well-educated, literate native speaker at that, but you can't expect that from everyone. Even if those people you're referring to are English native speakers, maybe their writing skills fall short of perfect - they shouldn't if they represent agencies, but direct clients don't always have a particularly high standard of written English.
My most common personal experience is with clients (agency and direct) who are writing in a foreign language, and I don't feel it's my business to be critical of their attempt. Most often, I don't understand a word of their language, as I specialise nowadays in monolingual English work, so I'm not exactly in a position to criticise. Strangely enough, my principal Polish agency client a few years back started every email with "Madame" Even though I invoiced them monthly for several years, and I tried to encourage them to use my name, they stuck steadfastly to "Madame"! It actually made things rather difficult when it came to later and later payments - I tend to become a little more formal when I escalate issues, but where could I go, when I'd stayed relatively formal, to blend in?
I think all we can do is be careful of what we ourselves write. As this thread demonstrates, that's problem enough!
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| More like the corporate thing, perhaps | Jun 25, 2013 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
I know your grasp of English is equivalent to a native speaker's, and a well-educated, literate native speaker at that,
Thank you!
but you can't expect that from everyone. Even if those people you're referring to are English native speakers, maybe their writing skills fall short of perfect - they shouldn't if they represent agencies, but direct clients don't always have a particularly high standard of written English.
What I was thinking about was the standard corporate thing: on se tutoier but thinks 'Mister President' under that thin superficial layer. All it does is remove the basic respect that everybody was entitled to. Some years ago, manager John Smith, referred to as 'Mister Smith', gave orders, and one (i.e. Tim, Kate, Josh and the rest of them) listened, because Mr Smith was the manager. Nowadays John gives orders to Tim, Kate etc. because John is alpha, and thus John > Tim in a more personal, integral type of relationship that's not left at the door when leaving work for home. I'm really prejudiced against that type of thing, so perhaps I exaggerate.
Strangely enough, my principal Polish agency client a few years back started every email with "Madame" Even though I invoiced them monthly for several years, and I tried to encourage them to use my name, they stuck steadfastly to "Madame"!
That's so Polish, yeah. These days they generally use first names preceded by the basic honorific, but you can still get a, 'Respected Sir, I am writing to request translation of the document enclosed.' Actually, the formality is a good coping mechanism for a lot of things. It allows us to keep our healthy distance. It really is somewhat similar to how heavy duty legalese works for lawyers, I suppose.
I tend to become a little more formal when I escalate issues, but where could I go, when I'd stayed relatively formal, to blend in?
There are two ways, actually. One can actually start being up to the point and talking directly about things without leaving the formal register, or one can go full-on with the 19th century prose (and all embellishments thereunto appertaining). The latter is sometimes a handy tool in removing bureaucratic obstruction. 'In your next correspondence, it will please you, sir, to include a scanned confirmation of transfer to the effect of my said invoice having been duly paid as issued (with interest by law prescribed as from the appointed day of payment).' Easy as pie.
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