| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Poll: Should a translator only work into his/her native language(s)? 投稿者: ProZ.com Staff
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Rolf Kern 
スイス
Local time: 02:46
英語 から ドイツ語
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追悼
Karen Sughyan wrote:
The point is not whether you translate into native or foreign language but how you master that particular language. Nativeness of a target language does not guarantee high quality of translation.
But non-nativeness of a target language does even moren ot guarantee high quality of translation.
| | | | | ProZ changed my opinion | Nov 20, 2010 |
At one time I would have said yes, but I have come across several Russian-to-English translators with Russian native language on ProZ whose work is really excellent.
| | | | | One cannot be too dogmatic | Nov 20, 2010 |
This is valid as a very broad principle, but one should not be too dogmatic.
Take the example of two leading figures in the political life of Cyprus following the island's independence in 1960, the native Greek speaker Glafkos Klerides (now deceased), and the native Turkish speaker Rauf Denktash. Both of these men studied law in the UK and went on to serve as barristers for many years in the English law courts before returning to their native country on its independence. I think few... See more This is valid as a very broad principle, but one should not be too dogmatic.
Take the example of two leading figures in the political life of Cyprus following the island's independence in 1960, the native Greek speaker Glafkos Klerides (now deceased), and the native Turkish speaker Rauf Denktash. Both of these men studied law in the UK and went on to serve as barristers for many years in the English law courts before returning to their native country on its independence. I think few people could argue that these men would be less competent to translate a complex legal document from their respective native languages into English (assuming that they had the time and inclination to do so!) than a native English speaker with no legal background who has picked up a little of the local language after staying for a few months in Greece or Turkey. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tatty
Local time: 02:46
スペイン語 から 英語
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| The flaw in the argument | Nov 20, 2010 |
But they didn't offer their services as translators now did they...
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| Personal decision | Nov 20, 2010 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
So I think it's a very personal decision
I agree. I have always excelled at writing in English (my native language), so I am completely comfortable translating into English.
However, even though I lived in Italy for four years and have a university degree in Italian, I would not translate into Italian. My Italian friends often compliment me on my writing skills, but I take that with a grain of salt, realizing that I have good writing skills for a foreigner, not for an Italian. I leave that to them!
However, I do think that some people can write very well in their L2. It all comes down to being able to reasonably analyze your own skills. I don't think there can be a definite answer to this question without considering the individuals involved.
| | | | Vitals
リトアニア
Local time: 03:46
英語 から リトアニア語
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| Often it's only a EU creed | Nov 20, 2010 |
The European Parliament, the commission, etc. - they tend to spread the "native-only" creed. But people do not take into consideration the modern bi-/-trilingual societies where you learn both (or three) languages at the same time and on the same level - and there are actually no official means to prove you are not a native speaker of this or the other language.
To my mind, even the Proz.com profile option where you have to indicate your native language is often misleading 'cause i... See more The European Parliament, the commission, etc. - they tend to spread the "native-only" creed. But people do not take into consideration the modern bi-/-trilingual societies where you learn both (or three) languages at the same time and on the same level - and there are actually no official means to prove you are not a native speaker of this or the other language.
To my mind, even the Proz.com profile option where you have to indicate your native language is often misleading 'cause it gives people a limited idea of your actual language abilities, if you are bi-/trilingual.
Moreover, the NATIVENESS of the language is still a very blurry concept which doesn't have a good set of principles to base it on (people born into multicultural families and societies will understand me perfectly).
So I will say NO - nativeness is not even a criterion to me, the quality is what matters (see post by Jack Doughty). ▲ Collapse
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Tatty wrote:
But they didn't offer their services as translators now did they...
No they didn't, or don't in the case of Denktash. But they would undoubtedly have been capable of producing highly competent translations out of their native languages into English. So let us not turn this thing into a fetish.
| | | | Theo Bernards (X)
フランス
Local time: 02:46
英語 から オランダ語
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| It sort of depends on many factors | Nov 20, 2010 |
I have no strong opinions about the matter, but I remain unconvinced that 'nativeness' in the target language should be a strictly followed selection criterium when choosing a translator. Given the differences in daily language use in almost every language (Great Britain/USA/Australia, Germany/Austria/Switzerland, The Netherlands/Flanders, France/Wallonia/Quebec, Spain/South America, Portugal/Brazil/Angola, to point out a few of many examples) would seem to make the target native speakers issue ... See more I have no strong opinions about the matter, but I remain unconvinced that 'nativeness' in the target language should be a strictly followed selection criterium when choosing a translator. Given the differences in daily language use in almost every language (Great Britain/USA/Australia, Germany/Austria/Switzerland, The Netherlands/Flanders, France/Wallonia/Quebec, Spain/South America, Portugal/Brazil/Angola, to point out a few of many examples) would seem to make the target native speakers issue a bit of a moot point.
Oddly enough the only objections I ever get about my not being a native English speaker are translation agencies. The direct clients I have never seem to make an issue out of it... ▲ Collapse
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Only into mother tongue. imhoo
| | | | Lingua 5B
ボスニア・ヘルツェゴビナ
Local time: 02:46
2009に入会
英語 から クロアチア語
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| Not a blurry concept at all. | Nov 20, 2010 |
Vitals wrote:
Moreover, the NATIVENESS of the language is still a very blurry concept which doesn't have a good set of principles to base it on (people born into multicultural families and societies will understand me perfectly).
It's a very well defined concept in the linguistic science.
Regarding the multicultural families, even they have a language that is dominant in their perception and everyday living, commonly the language of the country in which they live and the language of their elementary and high-school education ( versus the one they speak at home, for example). So that dominant language will be their native, while others will be second native.
| | | | | Native, native-equivalent, non-native or foreign? | Nov 20, 2010 |
It all depends really on the definition of native.
My native language is British English. French for me is a foreign language, even though I started learning it seriously at the age of 8 (when I could already count etc in French) and I've lived in France for the past 14 years. I would never consider translating into French professionally, although I do do it sometimes for benefit-in-kind (I live in a major wine-producing area ... See more It all depends really on the definition of native.
My native language is British English. French for me is a foreign language, even though I started learning it seriously at the age of 8 (when I could already count etc in French) and I've lived in France for the past 14 years. I would never consider translating into French professionally, although I do do it sometimes for benefit-in-kind (I live in a major wine-producing area).
My son has lived in France for exactly the same length of time, but he arrived here at the age of 10. His native language is English, but his French is just as good, maybe better. If he wanted to be a translator (which he doesn't) why shouldn't he offer both pairs?
We talk of native and non-native here - I find it more helpful to think of native-equivalent and foreign languages - foreign being the ones where you are still learning (and/or forgetting) the grammar rules, rather than just "knowing" the language. ▲ Collapse
| | | | m_temmer
Local time: 18:46
英語 から オランダ語
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| EU's "native only" creed | Nov 20, 2010 |
Vitals wrote:
The European Parliament, the commission, etc. - they tend to spread the "native-only" creed. But people do not take into consideration the modern bi-/-trilingual societies where you learn both (or three) languages at the same time and on the same level - and there are actually no official means to prove you are not a native speaker of this or the other language.
So I will say NO - nativeness is not even a criterion to me, the quality is what matters (see post by Jack Doughty).
The EU institutions are right to be severe. The quality of the legislation depends on it! And their criterion is not so much the native aspect as quality. And we just have to accept that native translators/interpreters are better in 99% of the cases.
Re some other posts:
The fact that you're translating into your mother tongue, doesn't necessarily make you a good translator (rendering the message correctly). As a matter of fact, your translation can be worse than the one made by a non-native. But in this discussion, we shouldn't refer to the correct translation of the contents of a text. The "native" theme is about language and nothing else. Otherwise, the whole discussion becomes one big mess, with barely relevant arguments. So let's just assume that both the native and the non-native translators understand the source text perfectly.
[Edited at 2010-11-21 15:00 GMT]
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| "Only" is an exclusive statement. | Nov 21, 2010 |
The problem is with categorical formulation of the question: "Should a translator only work into his/her native language(s)? ". Use of "only" excludes the possibility of translation into a foreign language, and I don't agree with such statement. The main decisive factor here is the proficiency level.
[Edited at 2010-11-21 05:04 GMT]
| | | | | It depends on purpose of the translation | Nov 21, 2010 |
I general, I am a believer in native-only. I cut my translation teeth in organizations that had that requirement, and that's where I learned my standards for translation quality. I have worked in this business more decades than I care to admit, and I also taught translation for many years at the university level. Without fail, I can always tell if a translation has been done by a non-native speaker.
Few second-language learners write as well in their learned language as they do in ... See more I general, I am a believer in native-only. I cut my translation teeth in organizations that had that requirement, and that's where I learned my standards for translation quality. I have worked in this business more decades than I care to admit, and I also taught translation for many years at the university level. Without fail, I can always tell if a translation has been done by a non-native speaker.
Few second-language learners write as well in their learned language as they do in their native tongue. They "pass" when they speak, but differences will always show up in writing. Some people can be native in two languages, but that's not the same as translating into a non-native language.
A good native translator intuitively processes the idea and does something in the brain that produces an equivalent which may appear quite different from the source text but represents the idea perfectly. A non-native translator bypasses that internal processing stage and produces a more literal translation, and that's where the problems start.
Having said the above, I would also agree that a client may not NEED a translation that meets such a standard. I can see that situation applying with technical texts, where knowledge of the technical subject matter is paramount. Ideally, the native translator will specialize and can therefore produce a text that is both technically correct and linguistically fluent. I have always heard it said that it's easier for a good translator to learn a technical domain that to turn a technical person into a good translator.
And now, when we do get stumped by an expression we aren't familiar with in the source text, we have our wonderful colleagues on KudoZ to help us out!! The trick is to know when we don't know.
Regarding slang, which was mentioned above, my experience has been that slang is not that hard to **understand** for translation purposes if the translator lives with the language at home or on the street. On the other hand, non-native speakers should be very careful **using** slang in their learned language, because it rarely sounds the same as when a native speaker uses it. If feels as if the stress is on the wrong sylLABle. ▲ Collapse
| | | | JapanLegal
日本
Local time: 09:46
2009に入会
日本語 から 英語
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| In Japanese-English, yes! | Dec 7, 2010 |
So let's just assume that both the native and the non-native translators understand the source text perfectly.
Hear, hear. This debate only makes sense if we're comparing apples to apples, changing one variable at a time.
I find all of this talk of native vs. native-equivalent very interesting. However, I have to say that in the Japanese-English language pair, non-native English speakers who can produce idiomatic and sophisticated written English are like unicorns. They simply don't exist. (I would define a non-native speaker as someone who neither spoke English at home nor completed some significant portion of his/her K-12 schooling in English.)
That said, I agree with the following:
. . . I would also agree that a client may not NEED a translation that meets such a standard.
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