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Glossary entry

German term or phrase:

Alemanneneinfälle

English translation:

incursions by Alemannic tribes

Added to glossary by Languageman
Dec 20, 2006 14:29
17 yrs ago
German term

Alemanneneinfälle

German to English Social Sciences History Roman occupation of Rhineland
This is from a text discussing the history of a Roman winery in the Rhineland:
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Im frühen 4. Jahrhundert wurde das Hauptgebäude nochmals erheblich erweitert. Danach hatte der Gutshof jedoch nicht mehr lange bestanden: Um 352 n. Chr. fiel er den Zerstörungen im Zuge der Alemanneneinfälle zum Opfer.
----

I can think of a number of terms that might fit here. From what I understand from the author, the conflicts in question are more than simple raiding parties, but not a full scale invasion (hence the plural).

I was thinking about using "incursions", but cannot find any use of "Alamanni incursions" online (or using 'Allemanni' or 'Alemanni'). Any knowledgeable comments on preferred spelling in English would be great.

Thanks in advance as always,

Stephen
Proposed translations (English)
3 +3 incursions by Alemannic tribes
3 +9 Alamanni raids

Discussion

Languageman (asker) Dec 21, 2006:
@Rebecca Thanks for the extra info, that's very helpful. The location of this site is Bad Dürkheim, Rheinland-Pfalz. According to this map http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alamannia the conquered territory didn't extend that far north, but obviously borders changed a lot around that time!
Rebecca Garber Dec 21, 2006:
Academically, raids are distinguished from incursions by the eventual location of the attacking group. If the group settles in the area, then the attacks are incursions. If they constantly retreat and do not occupy the land, then they are raids.
Languageman (asker) Dec 21, 2006:
@Andrew Both in equal measure really - clearly there is some disagreement over the spelling, but I was also unsure about the best choice of term. As I understand it, in a historical context the confllcts in question were 'more than looting' but 'less than an invasion'.
Lancashireman Dec 20, 2006:
Does your question primarily concern the correct spelling of the name or are you more concerned with the choice between ‘incursion’ and ‘raid’ (or, indeed. any other term that would fit the context)? Difficult to interpret the comment-free ‘agrees’ here.
John Jory Dec 20, 2006:
Encyclopaedia Britannica and Websters both give 'Alemanni' with reference to the alternative spelling.
Languageman (asker) Dec 20, 2006:
@Francis Thanks for the additional comments. I'm not sure that there is a difference, hence in large part why I asked the question. I felt instinctively that there was myself, but was unsure enough that I felt the need to ask. Re 'e' vs. 'a', I must confess to still being confused! Brigitte specifically (and other agrees by inference) seems keen to use the 'a'. I suppose it really must be interchangeable!
Francis Lee (X) Dec 20, 2006:
Stephen: is there a difference in this context? Surely "raid" is the more general term, but as I said below: I'm sure either word could be used here. Allerdings hieße es "AlEmanni" - which is what I'd've suggested anyway. Definitey with the "e", at least.
Languageman (asker) Dec 20, 2006:
@Rebecca Thanks for the clarification, much appreciated.
Rebecca Garber Dec 20, 2006:
FYI: Alemanni is the preferred English, scholarly reference to the group of tribes. Only Wiki uses "Alamanni" as an initial term, and most of the other pages googled are Italian. RLRG--German medievalist by training.
Languageman (asker) Dec 20, 2006:
Thanks for the help In answer to Francis' question, according to Cambridge there is at least a difference in implication:

Raid = a short sudden attack, usually by a small group of people
Incursion = a sudden attack on or entry into a place, especially across a border
http://dictionary.cambridge.org

Proposed translations

+3
8 mins
Selected

incursions by Alemannic tribes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alamanni

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Note added at 17 mins (2006-12-20 14:46:57 GMT)
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The spelling with 'e' rather than 'a' is the one I am familiar with. Also I am more familiar with references to them as a group of tribes rather than as one homogenous group.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alemannic_German
I hesitate to suggest that you allow Google scores to decide your choice...

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Note added at 40 mins (2006-12-20 15:09:41 GMT)
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Re your note below: Take care with the double and single consonants, Stephen!

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Note added at 1 hr (2006-12-20 16:05:04 GMT)
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RLRG is right: who would have thought that there were so many hotels with the name 'Alamanni' in Italy?

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Note added at 2 hrs (2006-12-20 16:50:20 GMT)
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There doesn't appear to be any effective KudoZ mechanism for responding to comments posted to other answers, e.g. 'As a student of history I...' or '...sounds more destructive'.

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Note added at 2 hrs (2006-12-20 17:13:14 GMT)
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Re 'by inference': Not necessarily. Some of the voting above (one in particular) may be more to do with the 'raid/incursion' issue. There is also one piece of nostalgic reverie plus two comment-free agrees. Set against this, you have three people very firmly committing to 'e'.

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Note added at 4 hrs (2006-12-20 18:29:13 GMT)
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Two more now...

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Note added at 9 hrs (2006-12-20 23:37:26 GMT)
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One further point (though at 9:2 this may now be a lost cause): I would not use the noun form 'Alemanni' (let alone 'Alamanni') to qualify 'raids' or 'incursions' because there is an accepted adjective form, 'Alemannic'. (Cf the 'Spaniard Armada'.) My own preference would be to invert the the construction and link the two nouns with 'by'.

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Note added at 1 day6 hrs (2006-12-21 21:25:19 GMT)
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I’m not sure whether it is wise or seemly to post any further comments (could look rather pathetic in the event that the pithy ‘Alamanni raids’ is declared ‘most helpful answer’ and waltzes off with the points!) but Cassell’s Latin dictionary gives the following: incursio –onis f.(incurro) a running against, clash, onset, collision, attack, raid, invasion.
For ‘Einfall’ Wahrig gives ‘feindl. Vordringen in ein Gebiet’.
Note from asker:
Thanks, I should have searched on the singular "incursion" I guess! I noticed that on the linked page the used the spelling 'Alamanni', any reason to prefer "Alemmanic tribes"?
Re comments to other answerers: I've had the same problem myself in the past. Usually I've added an "Ask asker" note at the top of the page. I imagine that this is to encourage people to add agree, neutral, or disagree, but obviously that isn't always appropriate.
Fair point re people specifically voting for 'e' - I'll use that unless lots of folk start shouting for the 'a'.
Peer comment(s):
agree Francis Lee (X) : incursions or raids; I'm sure historians use both terms
7 mins
agree Parzival
59 mins
Thank you, Walter.
agree Rebecca Garber : Alemannic is the correct adjective. Incusions imply that the group is going to occupy the area, which did happen in some Rhine areas. Frohes Fest, Andrew
23 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks to everyone that contributed so much information to this question; this also helped in the wider context of the translation. It was a tough call, but in the Andrew's persistent and well backed-up arguments won the day. I couldn't really fault the logic! I also decided on reflection that the average foreign tourist (at whom this text is aimed) would be likely to be unfamiliar with "The Al(e/a)manni", so the addition of 'tribes' adds a bit of further information (notwithstanding the correct adjectival use). Thanks again all, merry Christmas."
+9
9 mins

Alamanni raids

How about just "raids"?

The Alamanni were continually engaged in conflicts with the Roman Empire. They launched a major invasion of Gaul and northern Italy in 268, when the Romans were forced to denude much of their German frontier of troops in response to a massive invasion of the Goths from the east. Their raids throughout the three parts of Gaul were traumatic: Gregory of Tours (died ca 594) mentions their destructive force at the time of Valerian and Gallienus (253–260), when the Alemanni assembled under their "king", whom he calls Chrocus, who "by the advice, it is said, of his wicked mother, and overran the whole of the Gauls, and destroyed from their foundations all the temples which had been built in ancient times. And coming to Clermont he set on fire, overthrew and destroyed that shrine which they call Vasso Galatae in the Gallic tongue," martyring many Christians (Historia Francorum Book I.32–34). Thus 6th century Gallo-Romans of Gregory's class, surrounded by the ruins of Roman temples and public buildings, attributed the destruction they saw to the plundering raids of the Alemanni.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alamanni
Peer comment(s):
agree raptisi
7 mins
agree Francis Lee (X) : incursions/raids: is there a difference?
8 mins
agree BrigitteHilgner : As a student of history I am all in favour of "Alamanni" and "Alamannic" (not Alemannic).
25 mins
agree Paul Cohen : Those were the days!
57 mins
agree DDM
1 hr
agree Darin Fitzpatrick : Raids sound more destructive.
1 hr
agree John Jory : Encyclopedia Britannica and Websters both give 'Alemanni' with reference to the alternative spelling.
3 hrs
The OED uses Alemanni and Alemannic. I think I would use those spellings too.
agree Thomas Bollmann
4 hrs
agree writeaway
4 hrs
Something went wrong...
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