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| | | critical period language | Aug 7, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
languages to be used at work, if the job requires fluency in certain languages. This obvious, and this is legal -- exactly what I was saying. I think am getting bored with this thread, though, at least temporarily.
[Edited at 2013-08-07 18:24 GMT]
I am sorry you are getting bored with the thread but let's see if this piques your interest:
First, we freelancers don't interview for translation agencies. But let's say some of us want to do it because we need a job with good hours, great pay, healthcare , benefits and lots of vacation time. There might be some out there.
I doubt that anyone will ask you for the fluency level. They will think that as a translator you have to be very fluent in the languages you work in and that you have a particular command of at least one language because you grew up with it, learned it during the critical period of language acquisition. They might have you translate something into that language. Or it might be more important to the agency to hire you because they want you to use it as your source language. But it will most probably be important to them in some regard.
They might never utter the word "native language" in the interview but it will be implied in some way because that's just what is important in this business. Many agencies advertise their services with "our translations are always carried out by native speakers of the target language." (added: or maybe by a team of source-native and target-native translators).
Now back to Proz.com: if one day Proz.com decides to do away with the term "native speaker" or "native language", it will have to be replaced by a proxy term because the concept of "native language" is accepted as real by the majority of translators and clients alike. Now if that term becomes CPL (critical period language), I would suggest to handle it as we did with the NS icon, you can be a confirmed "CPL" in one language without actual verification.
And please note, I wouldn't understand CPL as any language you learned as an adult. Whatever it will be, I could only accept it if it were a real stand-in term for "native speaker" or "native language".
The word "native" would be gone. Could you live with that, Lilian?
]
[Edited at 2013-08-07 20:07 GMT]
| | | | Ty Kendall 
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:30
Hebrew to English
| Great find Sarah! | Aug 7, 2013 |
S. Elizabeth wrote: The question "What is your native language?" is on the contractor application form for the US State Department's Office of Language Services: http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/138408.pdf Page 2 of 3, under the section dedicated to freelance translator applicants. Note that there is a difference between the legal status of freelancers and that of employees, as has been noted elsewhere in this thread. It took all of under 30 seconds to find this document. It seems to be dated March 2010. Sarah
So, how do you explain this Lilian?
..by the US State Department no less...
| | | | | Well , this must be for contractors from outside of the US | Aug 7, 2013 |
look at the form intended for American people -- which other languages except English do you speak fluently. It is illegal to ask any American person or even another person authorized to work in the US about their native language, unless they called it this way themselves in the resume, in a letter, or during their interview. You are not forbidden to tell your employer, or even the outsourcer anything -- if you want to. They just cannot ask certain questions.
as to this form-- it ... See more look at the form intended for American people -- which other languages except English do you speak fluently. It is illegal to ask any American person or even another person authorized to work in the US about their native language, unless they called it this way themselves in the resume, in a letter, or during their interview. You are not forbidden to tell your employer, or even the outsourcer anything -- if you want to. They just cannot ask certain questions.
as to this form-- it is definitely not for people in the US. the Department of State employs a lot of foreign contractors -- located in other countries.
[Edited at 2013-08-07 21:13 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 08:30
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam | @Lilian: Have you read the form carefully? | Aug 7, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Well , this must be for contractors from outside of the US
look at the form intended for American people -- which other languages except English do you speak fluently. It is illegal to ask any American person or even another person authorized to work in the US about their native language, unless they called it this way themselves in the resume, in a letter, or during their interview. You are not forbidden to tell your employer, or even the outsourcer anything -- if you want to. They just cannot ask certain questions.
as to this form-- it is definitely not for people in the US. the Department of State employs a lot of foreign contractors -- located in other countries.
Then why would they ask: "How long have you lived in the United States" on page one?
BTW, this is one form only, not two.
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Tatty
Local time: 17:30
Spanish to English
+ ...
| In the translation section | Aug 7, 2013 |
The question is contained in the translation section, Lilian. No-one is disputing that in general it may be against the law to ask question about native language for non-translation related employment...
| | | | | I am sorry but you are wrong | Aug 7, 2013 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote: LilianBNekipelo wrote:
languages to be used at work, if the job requires fluency in certain languages. This obvious, and this is legal -- exactly what I was saying. I think am getting bored with this thread, though, at least temporarily.
[Edited at 2013-08-07 18:24 GMT] I am sorry you are getting bored with the thread but let's see if this piques your interest: First, we freelancers don't interview for translation agencies. But let's say some of us want to do it because we need a job with good hours, great pay, healthcare , benefits and lots of vacation time. There might be some out there. I doubt that anyone will ask you for the fluency level. They will think that as a translator you have to be very fluent in the languages you work in and that you have a particular command of at least one language because you grew up with it, learned it during the critical period of language acquisition. They might have you translate something into that language. Or it might be more important to the agency to hire you because they want you to use it as your source language. But it will most probably be important to them in some regard. They might never utter the word "native language" in the interview but it will be implied in some way because that's just what is important in this business. Many agencies advertise their services with "our translations are always carried out by native speakers of the target language." (added: or maybe by a team of source-native and target-native translators). Now back to Proz.com: if one day Proz.com decides to do away with the term "native speaker" or "native language", it will have to be replaced by a proxy term because the concept of "native language" is accepted as real by the majority of translators and clients alike. Now if that term becomes CPL (critical period language), I would suggest to handle it as we did with the NS icon, you can be a confirmed "CPL" in one language without actual verification. And please note, I wouldn't understand CPL as any language you learned as an adult. Whatever it will be, I could only accept it if it were a real stand-in term for "native speaker" or "native language". The word "native" would be gone. Could you live with that, Lilian? ] [Edited at 2013-08-07 20:07 GMT]
Many prestigious companies will give you language and editing tests, especially if you apply for editing positions, but translation, too, -- both in-house and freelance. They will never tell you any nonsense that you have to translate only into the language you spoke when were seven, or something like that. They absolutely never ask you anything about any native language, not to mention that they would tell you to translate only into X language. This is just ridiculous. How many US born people, especially in the past, could translate anything more complex from any language? Languages were totally neglected here, maybe because of different priorities, so most of the translators who translate into English are not US born, perhaps just have been living here from quite a young age.
I really find it hard to believe that people would consider someone who spent close to twenty years abroad and has most of his university education in English, a 100% authentic native speaker of German. It is just hard for me to believe, because I just have not met anyone like that before. Of course, a person can probably be identified where they lived, at least, through the use of forensic linguistics if they were looking for some dangerous criminal and this was important. This native language thing is a total nonsense. I think this might be my final point, at least for now.
If you go to the best linguistic departments at any university where they know what they are doing -- they will not ask you to translate into another language than English. I don't even know if they offer translation into other languages -- at least I don't know about any places like that. Try placing an ad in any prestigious newspaper. "Spanish-English translator needed. English native speakers only may apply." No on will accept an ad like this -- at least none of the prestigious newspapers.
As to the level of nativeness., you would probably find 50% of the people born in New York not totally native, Bernhard, due to the impurities in their language.
I think the term should be taken out of modern linguistics altogether because it is too imprecise, and it becomes the source of prejudice. There are better words than that. As to this application form -- it must have been prepared by someone who was not totally competent in what they were doing, or in a hurry. You would not see anything like that in NY. (after 1978) Maybe they just copied mechanically a part of the form intended for other countries. I have to check the most current form, and to spend some time to really see if this form is for US contractors. They will never ever tell you not to translate into English, even if you listed another language as your native,if there were even a question like that.
Just try placing an ad like I said -- this will be the best proof. I think I am really done with this thread.
Native language is nothing but an idea -- especially in the form as some outsourcer perceive it. Native speaker is an ideal speaker that will create a perfect translation for them, so that they don't really have to worry about editing, or anything else, who does not really exist in a collective sense -- there may be some individuals like that,probably not too many. It is time to go back to Earth, and look at the objective factors. Not all "native speakers" write like Heminway, after all, or were born in Cincinnati, Ohio.
[Edited at 2013-08-07 22:32 GMT]
| | | | | I don't know any translators who use the language of a seven-year old | Aug 7, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Many prestigious companies will give you language and editing tests, especially if you apply for editing positions, but translation, too, --both in-house and free lance. They will never tell you any nonsense that you have to translate only into the language you spoke when were seven, or something like that. they absolutely never ask you anything about any native language, not to mention that they would tell you to translate only into X language. This is a just ridiculous.
I didn't exclude the possibility that a translation agency hiring a translator will test him/her (that's what I meant by "might have you translate something into that language" - meaning one's native language) - it seems very logical to me. But as I also said, they might be interested in a translator for their native languages as source languages (especially when they're more exotic languages or when there aren't many translators available to translate from these languages). They might want to give the job to a team of source- and target-natives.
Translators are usually not seven years old but the language they regarded as their native language then is the one most of them still regard as their native language today and use today but it's not the native language of a seven-year old because they have used it consistently since then and expanded their vocabulary and the structure of their speech, just like most other translators have done who use their native language professionally. But the basic "grid" if you will behind that language was formed in their childhood.
Now if one hasn't spoken that language since they were seven, they wouldn't do anyone (especially themselves) any favors wanting to use it as a translator, especially if they don't have any of the other attributes that come with our profession - and such attributes in connection with the current use of said native language(s) are a must in order to be seriously considered as a translator working in that "native" language. But that language of their use (a native language as long as they learned it for a few years) is probably still accessible to them, they just have to get back into it. It'll take a while. Also see Ty's example a few pages ago.
It would be nonsense to suggest using a seven-year old's language skills as one's credential as a translator. Clearly, I didn't imply that at all.
Please remember, in our context here at Proz.com, native language is one aspect of many, such as expertise. education, and experience, and we are all supposed to be professional translators. In combination with these other attributes, native language denotes a very important additional credential and skill, often a very crucial one when applying or being considered for a translation job.
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
I really find it hard to believe that people would consider someone who spent close to twenty years abroad and has most of his university education in English, a 100% authentic native speaker of German. It is just hard for me to believe, because I just have not met anyone like that before. Of course a person can probably be identified where they lived at least through the use of forensic linguistics if they were looking for some dangerous criminal and this was important. this native language thing is a total nonsense.
Maybe this will help: I did actually live in Salzburg just a few years ago, for 10 months. No one thought that I wasn't a German native speaker. I also teach German and have done so for quite some time. If you feel like it, have someone call me or write me in German, I'll be glad to show them my German.
I fail to see why you have to refer to forensic linguistics and criminals in this context.
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
... If you go to the best linguistic departments at any university that knows what they are doing -- they will not ask you to translate into another language than English.i don't even know if they offer translation into other languages -- at least I don't know about nay players like that. try placing an ad in any prestigious newspaper. "Spanish-English translator needed. English native speak only may apply."No on will place an ad like this -- at least none of the prestigious newspapers.
Not sure what you are trying to prove here. Various people in academia, translators working for agencies or freelancers are available for translations in the US, from and into many languages. I myself have been asked to translate into German or from German into English (among them old hand-written German documents). And with regard to your ad example - I'm really not concerned about it.
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
as to the level of nativeness. You would probably find 50% of the people born in New York not totally native, Bernhard, due to the impurities in their language.
I think the be taken out of modern linguistics altogether because it is too imprecise, and becomes the source of prejudice. There are better words than that.
Why are we talking about 50% of the people born in New York City being not totally native??? I am not going to try to say anything about that except: can we just talk about professional members of our profession?
Now, you didn't say anything about my suggestion to replace "native" with "critical period"?
Maybe you find it too vague as well? Or hold on, you meant it would again be used to discriminate against someone? "Critical period" is already used, and not in order to discriminate against anyone.
[Edited at 2013-08-07 23:33 GMT]
| | | | Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 08:30
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
| I agree with Ty, great find. | Aug 8, 2013 |
S. Elizabeth wrote: The question "What is your native language?" is on the contractor application form for the US State Department's Office of Language Services: http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/138408.pdf Page 2 of 3, under the section dedicated to freelance translator applicants. Note that there is a difference between the legal status of freelancers and that of employees, as has been noted elsewhere in this thread.
Exactly. Federal law prohibits employers from discriminating based on national origin, which is why questions about native language are illegal on employment applications and during employment interviews.
More info here:
Federal Laws Prohibiting Job Discrimination Questions And Answers
http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/qanda.html
[Edited at 2013-08-08 02:49 GMT]
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Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:30
Hebrew to English
| I've woken up to this....or have I woken up? Must be a dream it's so surreal... | Aug 8, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
you would probably find 50% of the people born in New York not totally native due to the impurities in their language.
I think the term should be taken out of modern linguistics altogether because it is too imprecise, and it becomes the source of prejudice
this application form -- it must have been prepared by someone who was not totally competent in what they were doing, or in a hurry
I think I am really done with this thread.
I have a sneaking suspicion that even if the US Attorney General and Barack Obama were to waltz onto this thread and tell Lilian in no uncertain terms that that form is perfectly legal, meant for people living on US soil and was not compiled "in a hurry" or by some trained monkey, she still wouldn't believe it and would argue the toss with them.
| | | | | I am sorry, Bernhard, with all my respect, but talking to you about | Aug 8, 2013 |
some delicate issues of the so called "native language" is like talking about harmony of a musical piece to a painter who cannot stand classical music. You simply don't feel it, so what can I do. It might be your traditional, conservative approach to things, but it really feels like talking to my grandmother (nothing related to age) that there really is no such a law anywhere that women should wear hats if they go outside anywhere in Europe. Some people just accept only the most extreme extreme... See more some delicate issues of the so called "native language" is like talking about harmony of a musical piece to a painter who cannot stand classical music. You simply don't feel it, so what can I do. It might be your traditional, conservative approach to things, but it really feels like talking to my grandmother (nothing related to age) that there really is no such a law anywhere that women should wear hats if they go outside anywhere in Europe. Some people just accept only the most extreme extreme traditionalism .
All governmental agencies will ask you to translate into English, not even let you do it, if you are a US translator, probably even if your English was not on the very top level--- I know a few translators from more exotic languages, whose English is definitely not the type of high school English teacher.
What about teaching -- many English teachers, at least in NYC are not US born people, even high school teachers. Many teachers of English as a second language have very distinct accents -- as a result of speaking other languages from their childhood. Some are apparently good teachers -- I don't know -- I would have to do some research among the people who studied English as a second language in the US. They are allowed to teach at least.
It is all nonsense basically, the native language thing, especially in the very conservative understanding of this imprecise term. Anything that you learned in a particular language is "native". How do you go about the concepts that your learned in English only, not in German, in college? Do you translate them back to German from English? Do you learn them from a separate book in German? Or do you assume that you automatically know them because you were born in a German-speaking country? Is your university knowledge "native" in English or in German? Maybe you see the point. It is all not as simple as some people may think. Linguistics is a very complex discipline -- it fact it developed as a branch of philosophy -- definitely not a CAT tool science. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | They would never do it, Ty -- not this President | Aug 8, 2013 |
Ty Kendall wrote: LilianBNekipelo wrote:
you would probably find 50% of the people born in New York not totally native due to the impurities in their language.
I think the term should be taken out of modern linguistics altogether because it is too imprecise, and it becomes the source of prejudice
this application form -- it must have been prepared by someone who was not totally competent in what they were doing, or in a hurry
I think I am really done with this thread. I have a sneaking suspicion that even if the US Attorney General and Barack Obama were to waltz onto this thread and tell Lilian in no uncertain terms that that form is perfectly legal, meant for people living on US soil and was not compiled "in a hurry" or by some trained monkey, she still wouldn't believe it and would argue the toss with them.
I am not sure what the attorney general would do, but I doubt it. Look at the application -- if it were allowed, it would have been in the of the application part -- not in the additional questions part. Plus, even if the term could be found there in the more practical part -- stating one language as native would never preclude anyone from translating into another -- especially the language they speak in ordinary life, have all of the most essential education in, or maybe even not. It might not be even necessary. It would be probably enough that they knew it to a fluent level.
As to learning languages as an adult -- I only learned Spanish as and adult. I understand it pretty well. I really never worked that much on the language, but I think if I worked on it more -- it could be perfect in about a year from now. (Bernhards question, or point).
[Edited at 2013-08-08 08:25 GMT]
| | | | S E (X)
Italy
Local time: 17:30
Italian to English
| the U.S. Department of State and the native language requirement | Aug 8, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
As to this application form -- it must have been prepared by someone who was not totally competent in what they were doing, or in a hurry. You would not see anything like that in NY. (after 1978) Maybe they just copied mechanically a part of the form intended for other countries. I have to check the most current form, and to spend some time to really see if this form is for US contractors. They will never ever tell you not to translate into English, even if you listed another language as your native,if there were even a question like that.
Lilian: as to "hav[ing] to check the most current form" and "spend[ing] some time to really see if this form is for US contractors", here you go. The following is taken from the U.S. Department of State Office of Language Services website. The application form for contract translators is indeed up to date and this information is indeed for US contractors. It took all of 30 seconds to find this information. It is not at all hidden away or hard to access.
These are the Professional Qualifications required of Contract Translators by the U.S Department of State, copied in full from the U.S Department of State Office of Language Services website:
"Excellent reading comprehension in one or more source languages. In addition to knowing the language itself, an applicant must be well versed in the culture, government, society, economy, and daily life of source-language countries. Such knowledge may be acquired through a college education with studies covering a source-language country or region, lengthy residence in a source-language country, or other suitable experience.
Excellent target-language writing skills. An applicant must be able to write the target language well at an educated, native level with reasonable speed in a variety of styles. A successful college education or work experience are the best indicators of this qualification. LS generally tests applicants only into their native language. Applicants claiming an acquired target language must demonstrate lengthy residence in a target-language country or show other evidence of extensive experience writing the target language in a setting where writing on an educated native level is demanded on a frequent and regular basis.
Experience. LS cannot train contractors in the practice of translation or provide feedback on every assignment; applicants should thus have considerable recent professional experience translating written material comparable to the kind of work done by LS. Please note that bilingualism, interpreting experience, and spoken fluency in another language, though highly desirable, are not necessarily indicators of aptitude for translating written materials. Broad understanding of U.S. and foreign politics, government, history, economics, and culture, as well as current events and international affairs."
Source: U.S. Department of State Language Services Office webpage: http://languageservices.state.gov/content.asp?content_id=270&menu_id=108
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| Sure, definitely at a native level, anyone who completed college or even high schoolin English | Aug 8, 2013 |
is considered to write at a native level. This is the criteria. Many people on this site don't declare English as a native language write definitely at a native level. I never said the target language should not be top level -- just the nativeness is totally insane, with the conservative meaning some people cling to. Many US born students need developmental courses to write at a collage level in English. Native level is still imprecise, but is is not native meaning a US born person of English d... See more is considered to write at a native level. This is the criteria. Many people on this site don't declare English as a native language write definitely at a native level. I never said the target language should not be top level -- just the nativeness is totally insane, with the conservative meaning some people cling to. Many US born students need developmental courses to write at a collage level in English. Native level is still imprecise, but is is not native meaning a US born person of English descent. Don't you feel silly,to appear so biased? (This was mostly a response to Sara's
post)
I hope this to be some off the final points -- my comments are not about Proz at all. I am not interested what Proz does. It is quite a nice site, regardless of some small issues -- related to some unreasonable clients. I am interested in the problem on a different level -- as an approach to translation, the native language problem as a source of bias in multicultural environments, what is native really in terms of linguistics, especially when learning several languages simultaneously or even consecutively, and many other problems related to it.
[Edited at 2013-08-08 08:50 GMT]
[Edited at 2013-08-08 08:53 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | S E (X)
Italy
Local time: 17:30
Italian to English
| take a look at the form, Lilian. No need to guess at its contents. | Aug 8, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
I am not sure what the attorney general would do, but I doubt it. Look at the application if it were allowed-- it would have been a part of the application -- not in the additional questions part. Plus, even if the term could be found there in the more practical part -- stating one language as native would never preclude anyone from translating into another -- especially the language they speak in ordinary life, have all of the most essential education in, or maybe even not. It might not be even necessary. It would be probably enough that they knew it to a fluent level.
The question "what is your native language?" is part of the application form. A fundamental, intrinsic part of the application form.
Specifically, it is in the part of the application form addressed to and required of contract translators. US contract translators.
This will be quite clear to anyone who looks at the form.
Sarah
edited to correct quoted section of post, which was not copied and pasted correctly.
[Edited at 2013-08-08 09:17 GMT]
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:30
Hebrew to English
| Missed the point of the post...intepreted it too literally... | Aug 8, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
They would never do it, Ty -- not this President
No, I never suggested they would.
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