| विषय में पृष्ठों की संख्या: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Frustration at being undercut by non-native target language linguists विषय पोस्ट करनेवाला व्यक्ति: Dylan J Hartmann
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Jeff Whittaker 
संयुक्त राज्य अमरीका
Local time: 17:17
स्पेनी से अंग्रेजी
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[Edited at 2014-10-08 13:14 GMT]
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
संयुक्त राज्य अमरीका
Local time: 17:17
अंग्रेजी से जर्मन
+ ...
| Leisten (sg.) versus Leisten (pl.) (off-topic) | Oct 8, 2014 |
Erik Freitag wrote:
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Robert Rietvelt wrote:
In Holland we got the expression: "Schoenmaker blijf bij je leest", which literally translated into English means "let the cobbler stick to his last", which means "every man to his trade".
I say no more.
[Edited at 2014-10-07 21:10 GMT]
[Edited at 2014-10-07 21:11 GMT]
In German it's "Schuster bleib bei deinen Leisten" (same meaning) whereby "Leiste" (singular) literally means "shoe last"
see: http://www.shoeschool.com/shoeschool/lasts/shoe_lasts_what.html 
Actually, it's "Schuster, bleib bei deine m Leisten". It's "der Leisten" (singular).
Sorry, I couldn't resist. 
Well, where I grew up, we used the plural form. I/we must have been thinking of a lot of "Leisten" (Plural - bei deinen Leisten) that a shoemaker has in his/her store. Or I must have misheard it my whole life. Both forms are used and the singular form is probably the more traditional one. Thank you for correctly pointing out the singular form - der Leisten. You can find both forms (sg., and pl.) on the internet as well.
http://www.phrasen.com/uebersetze,Schuster-bleib-bei-deinen-Leisten,57606,d.html
Explanation (in German): http://www.sueddeutsche.de/service/sprachlabor-xxx-1.1104875
[Edited at 2014-10-08 16:12 GMT]
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Unedited since > a week | Bernhard Sulzer
संयुक्त राज्य अमरीका
Local time: 17:17
अंग्रेजी से जर्मन
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| There are claims and there are facts | Oct 8, 2014 |
Dan Lucas wrote:
Lincoln Hui wrote:
Really it's not about my own language A vs my own language B, it's about my languages A and B vs other translators' languages A and B. I see nothing to apologize for when my "weaker" language is still better than their "stronger" language.
I'm somewhat alarmed to find myself partly agreeing with Lincoln.
There are many who will claim to be native speakers and are not and there are many native speakers who will claim to be translators when they don't have the skills for it and shouldn't make the claim to be translators. And as many have pointed out, native language is one important asset, not the only one, but it becomes the most important one in the arsenal of a true professional translator.
If a non-native translator claims that another native translator's output is worse than his/hers, it's just a claim. If it has been found to be true by a client, the target audience or another professional or a group of professional native-speaker translator(s) or if it is just plain obvious, then there is something seriously wrong with the skill set or the claims of that native-speaker translator who provided the inferior translation. He/she is certainly no professional native-speaker translator. He/she might be a native speaker or not.
Dan Lucas wrote:
I can - and do - write in Japanese and seldom if ever do I make glaring mistakes or construct sentences that are not easily understood. Nevertheless my written Japanese lacks polish and range compared to that written by a good native speaker. Based on my observations of myself and others, "native speaker-hood" is a reliable heuristic for assessing linguistic ability in a particular language.
It's part of a reliable heuristic for assessing linguistic ability in a particular language. By itself, it doesn't guarantee the ability to be a great translator, but given all the other skills that are required for a professional translator (excellent knowledge of the non-native language and culture, advanced experience in using both languages, good tertiary education or self-taught knowledge and skills with regard to subject matter and writing style, etc.), the native-language factor is most important for being able to provide translations that are better than those of any non-native translator.
Dan Lucas wrote:
On the other hand, going by Lincoln's posts on ProZ I would judge his English to be better than that of the bulk of native speakers who I see writing in everyday life.
When we compare we should compare language skills of translators, not those of a translator with the bulk of native speakers in everyday life, right?
Dan Lucas wrote:
So I would say that while "native speaker" is a valid filter rule in 99% of cases, there are no doubt a few individuals - perhaps including Lincoln and some others on ProZ - for whom the rule would be unfair. But such people are, in the literal sense of the word, exceptional.
If you're an agency using the "native speakers only" rule of thumb you'll miss a promising non-native translator every now and again, but on a cost-benefit basis you're still far better off applying the filter than not.
Dan
Good way to put it, especially your 99% rule and the word "exceptional." Just want to point out that even if a person who learned the language later in life - did not grow up with it in a culture that uses that language - is very good in that language (and again, that doesn't show yet how good he/she is translating into that language), they are not native speakers, they are non-native speakers who have great command of that language.
PS: Pointing to the importance of the native-language criterion can help educate translators and clients with regard to the many aspects that go into quality work and quality results for which translators need to be paid for, and not just with peanuts.
[Edited at 2014-10-08 16:00 GMT]
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Bernhard Sulzer
संयुक्त राज्य अमरीका
Local time: 17:17
अंग्रेजी से जर्मन
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| The Alps, their water and the native speaker | Oct 8, 2014 |
Peter Zhuang wrote:
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Well, if you want water from the Alps, you better make sure it is water from the Alps. But you need to want to drink that water, not just faucet water. But if you can sell that ind of water/translation quality, you should be able to point it out. The proof is in the water.
"Water from the Alps" tells people absolutely nothing about the water quality. Water quality can be described quantitatively or qualitatively. Water samples with the same chemical and biological parameters are the same, regardless of their origin. And that is objectivity.
I used the term "water from the Alps" in my post as a proxy term for native speaker, in other words, as pure water, the real thing so to speak. When I grew up in the Alps, the water was probably indeed of much better quality, nowadays I am not so sure. But we should at least keep the term native speaker clearly separate from non-native or highly proficient, fluent etc. Otherwise, we are really just diluting, I mean deluding ourselves.
Peter Zhuang wrote:
You narrow definition of "native speaker" as someone who learnt a language before his adolescence is an opinion which you have yet to back up.
I believe if you learn a language at a later stage in life (definitely during your late teens or after reaching adulthood and especially in a non-native environment), you are never going to be a native speaker of that language. It has to do with how you process language in your brain and how language patterns and words in general are stored there and used continuously - which starts very early. So many argue that you have to learn a language from a very early age on to be a native speaker, and I believe they are correct. You can become very proficient in a non-native language, even later in life, but that doesn't make you a native speaker and it will show, especially if we are talking about translations into that language.
Peter Zhuang wrote:
You are telling us that someone who spent months and years to master a language will never be as good as a native speaker, and the only reason for this is his upbringing.
That's not what I am saying. Let's say with upbringing you refer to the time period between birth and adulthood. The language you learn during that time with which you also communicate mostly (for example someone learning and using German in a German-speaking country) can most definitely be called one's native language. This will not hold true for someone who learns German in school (let's say in England) from age 12 to age 16.
As far as mastering a language goes, you have to tell me what you mean by that. People can become fluent in any language, even when they are adults but they will not "master" (have command of) the language like a native speaker does. That's very crucial.
And being a native-language translator (into German for example) is another thing altogether. Professional translators are those who are highly trained in their own native language, much more so than any non-native speaker.
Peter Zhuang wrote:
Instead of defining and limiting other people's potential in their profession, and to some extent, disparaging their professional image, I think that it is more constructive to advocate for better quality.
It's important not to confuse proficiency in a non-native language with being a native speaker.
Too many claim the latter when it's obvious that they are not. Wavering on the subject only empowers those who want to take advantage of it and hurt our industry.
[Edited at 2014-10-08 16:04 GMT]
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
संयुक्त राज्य अमरीका
Local time: 17:17
अंग्रेजी से जर्मन
+ ...
| Ha! (off-topic) | Oct 8, 2014 |
Giles Watson wrote:
One day, a cobbler pointed out to the great artist Apelles that the shoes in one of his paintings weren't accurate. Apelles duly took note. The cobbler went on to criticise the rest of the painting, causing Apelles to exclaim (in the Latin translation) "Sutor, ne ultra crepidam!" ("Cobbler, stick to footwear!").
I only mention this story because it has given English the glorious verb "ultracrepidate", something translators do if we take on work that falls outside our sphere of knowledge.
Wouldn't it be nice if artists and cobblers could work together, though?
Thanks for that, Giles. And yes, that would be nice!
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Unedited since a week | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Empty post |
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Peter Zhuang
जर्मनी
Local time: 22:17
जर्मन से अंग्रेजी
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| It is crucial to back up your claims | Oct 9, 2014 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
But we should at least keep the term native speaker clearly separate from non-native or highly proficient, fluent etc. Otherwise, we are really just diluting, I mean deluding ourselves.
You can become very proficient in a non-native language, even later in life, but that doesn't make you a native speaker and it will show, especially if we are talking about translations into that language.
As far as mastering a language goes, you have to tell me what you mean by that. People can become fluent in any language, even when they are adults but they will not "master" (have command of) the language like a native speaker does. That's very crucial.
And being a native-language translator (into German for example) is another thing altogether. Professional translators are those who are highly trained in their own native language, much more so than any non-native speaker.
According to Oxford dictionary, to master something means to "acquire complete knowledge or skill" in the subject, not just to have a command of a subject.
The onus is on you, as objectively as possible, to deliver a proof that there are qualitative differences between a "native speaker" and their non-native counterpart.
If someone stands on the shore, looking at the distant horizon, he might not be able to perceive the curvature of the earth and conclude that the earth is flat. His empirical conclusion based on his own subjective observation might be the truth to him, and he can rightly proclaim it to be the truth. But until he is able to present evidence beyond his own experience, it remains his hypothesis.
Language is a skill that needs to and can be honed. A baker's son is not necessary a good baker by virtue of his father's profession.
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Unedited since over a week | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Unedited since more than 4 days | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Unedited since 4 days |
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| Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Empty post | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member because it was not in line with site rule | Peter Zhuang
जर्मनी
Local time: 22:17
जर्मन से अंग्रेजी
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| Sorry, it's a mistake, but... | Oct 9, 2014 |
Phil Hand wrote:
The problem isn't your name. It's the very first word of the description in your profile.
I'm not a fan of picking over the flaws in others' language, but Bernhard did not deserve that insinuation.
Hey Phil,
thanks for pointing out the mistake. I am not proud of the mistakes that I make, and I certainly do not want to make excuses for them. I wrote them in a haste a few months ago as I set up my profile and did not make an effort to improve them. That is my fault.
But I feel a need to respond when someone insinuates that I lied about my credentials.
Now I am told that my writing style is "non-native" without any concrete reason to support this statement. I find it almost offensive.
Quote:
"No, I was trying to say that the way you write English is non-native (it's very good though)."
[Edited at 2014-10-09 19:31 GMT]
[Edited at 2014-10-09 19:32 GMT]
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