| विषय में पृष्ठों की संख्या: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Frustration at being undercut by non-native target language linguists विषय पोस्ट करनेवाला व्यक्ति: Dylan J Hartmann
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Bernhard Sulzer 
संयुक्त राज्य अमरीका
Local time: 03:59
अंग्रेजी से जर्मन
+ ...
| About shoe lasts | Oct 7, 2014 |
Robert Rietvelt wrote:
In Holland we got the expression: "Schoenmaker blijf bij je leest", which literally translated into English means "let the cobbler stick to his last", which means "every man to his trade".
I say no more.
[Edited at 2014-10-07 21:10 GMT]
[Edited at 2014-10-07 21:11 GMT]
In German it's "Schuster bleib bei deinen Leisten" (same meaning) whereby "Leiste" (singular) literally means "shoe last"
see: http://www.shoeschool.com/shoeschool/lasts/shoe_lasts_what.html 
Correction (thank you Erik): Singular form: der Leisten
[Edited at 2014-10-08 14:29 GMT]
| | | | | Zapatero, a tus zapatos | Oct 7, 2014 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Robert Rietvelt wrote:
In Holland we got the expression: "Schoenmaker blijf bij je leest", which literally translated into English means "let the cobbler stick to his last", which means "every man to his trade".
I say no more.
[Edited at 2014-10-07 21:10 GMT]
[Edited at 2014-10-07 21:11 GMT]
In German it's "Schuster bleib bei deinen Leisten" (same meaning) whereby "Leiste" (singular) literally means "shoe last"
see: http://www.shoeschool.com/shoeschool/lasts/shoe_lasts_what.html
The same thing in Spanish: "Zapatero, a tus zapatos", which literally means "shoemaker, to your shoes".
| | | | Phil Hand
चीन
Local time: 15:59
चीनी से अंग्रेजी
| Possible opportunity to educate? | Oct 8, 2014 |
DJHartmann wrote:
Regarding the client in question, it turns out that he is naive and doesn't have experience selecting translators.
Seeing as you're already corresponding with him, you could take this opportunity to try to educate a newbie. New entrants to the translation market can have their viewpoints shifted by a forceful demonstration of quality. If you have the time and energy, you could offer to show him exactly why he should hire the costlier professional. If he's an agency contracting to a western firm, you could do a sample, get him to choose a cheaper translator to do another sample, and have the client pick.
Or don't bother, this stuff is entirely discretionary. My view is that it's worth making a difference to people's attitudes when you can, but no-one has the time to take on every case of ignorance.
| | | | Lincoln Hui
हांगकांग
Local time: 15:59
सदस्य
चीनी से अंग्रेजी
+ ...
someone who has studied in a language for 12 years of school plus university could easily be considered a native speaker.
Herein lies the heart of the problem - there are at least two definitions of "native" floating around this thread alone, so one is either a professioal or a liar. Which is why I say, better play games with the law than with one's conscience.
Most things that are taken as self-evident are not.
======
Still better than having two concepts define each other by circular reasoning though.
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Balasubramaniam L.
भारत
Local time: 13:29
सदस्य (2006)
अंग्रेजी से हिंदी
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER
DJHartmann wrote:
It would be understandable to have to concede and hire a non-native translator when there is a complete lack of natives available. Even Corrine McKay on the first page of her book 'How to Succeed as a Freelance Translator' mentioned how, "it's often easier to find a native Thai speaker who has English as a second language"(pg 15). However, when presented with a more appropriate option why not take it! Is it not one of the industry standards that we translate into our native languages?
You seem to be deriving your notions about "industry standards" from Mars!
If discussions in proz.com are anything to by, the native-only dogma has long been debunked and buried. It is now generally held by most professional translators that nativeness in the target language is not the sole hallmark of a good translator.
A good translator marshals several diverse skills - knowledge and skill in both the source and target cultures and languages; subject knowledge; age; experience; educational qualifications; and location.
| | | | Tom in London
यूनाइटेड किंगडम
Local time: 07:59
सदस्य (2008)
इतालवी से अंग्रेजी
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
.....the native-only dogma has long been debunked and buried. It is now generally held by most professional translators that nativeness in the target language is not the sole hallmark of a good translator.....
Could you kindly help us to assess that by putting some examples of your Hindi-English translations on your Proz page? At the moment there's only one English-Hindi example.I'd like to see if what you say is correct.
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Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
If discussions in proz.com are anything to by,
They're not. Plenty of fraudsters and amateurZ around here. How's that news?
It is now generally held by most professional translators that nativeness in the target language is not the sole hallmark of a good translator.
Very true. It is only one of the many hallmarks, in addition to and of equal importance as
knowledge and skill in both the source and target cultures and languages; subject knowledge; age; experience; educational qualifications; and location.
If an Arabic translator offers translations into English claiming that their written English is better than their Arabic, that's fair enough. In that case, though, they are a fraud if they also offer translations into Arabic, a weaker language by their own admission. Same goes for Hindi, Chinese, French and any other language. For chrissakes.
| | | | Dylan J Hartmann
आस्ट्रेलिया
सदस्य (2014)
थाई से अंग्रेजी
+ ...
मध्यस्थ विषय आरंभकर्ता | Really? what? | Oct 8, 2014 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
You seem to be deriving your notions about "industry standards" from Mars!
I actually referenced my notion of industry standards in the post that you've quoted! To add to that quote, "In the United States, the translation market is heavily geared towards translators who work into their native language" (McKay 2011:15). This notion seems also to be correct from the bulk of responses on this thread including the two messages above.
Once again though, we have a response from a former British colony (HK and now India) claiming their own English capabilities would not considered native.
English has special national status in India. It has a special place in the parliament, judiciary, broadcasting, journalism, and in the education system...the language permeates daily life. It is unavoidable and is always expected, especially in the cities.(http://www.usingenglish.com/comprehension/9.html)
There is a significant difference between all other non-English speaking countries and HK/India.
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Lincoln Hui
हांगकांग
Local time: 15:59
सदस्य
चीनी से अंग्रेजी
+ ...
Oh I would hardly call Hong Kong an English-speaking city and in any case Hong Kong had very little to do with my English education.
Really it's not about my own language A vs my own language B, it's about my languages A and B vs other translators' languages A and B. I see nothing to apologize for when my "weaker" language is still better than their "stronger" language.
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[Edited at 2014-10-08 09:46 GMT]
| | | | Erik Freitag
जर्मनी
Local time: 08:59
सदस्य (2006)
डच से जर्मन
+ ...
| Off-Topic: Leisten | Oct 8, 2014 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Robert Rietvelt wrote:
In Holland we got the expression: "Schoenmaker blijf bij je leest", which literally translated into English means "let the cobbler stick to his last", which means "every man to his trade".
I say no more.
[Edited at 2014-10-07 21:10 GMT]
[Edited at 2014-10-07 21:11 GMT]
In German it's "Schuster bleib bei deinen Leisten" (same meaning) whereby "Leiste" (singular) literally means "shoe last"
see: http://www.shoeschool.com/shoeschool/lasts/shoe_lasts_what.html
Actually, it's "Schuster, bleib bei deinem Leisten". It's "der Leisten" (singular).
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
| | | | | They must find the right person for their project. | Oct 8, 2014 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
DJHartmann wrote:
It would be understandable to have to concede and hire a non-native translator when there is a complete lack of natives available. Even Corrine McKay on the first page of her book 'How to Succeed as a Freelance Translator' mentioned how, "it's often easier to find a native Thai speaker who has English as a second language"(pg 15). However, when presented with a more appropriate option why not take it! Is it not one of the industry standards that we translate into our native languages?
You seem to be deriving your notions about "industry standards" from Mars!
If discussions in proz.com are anything to by, the native-only dogma has long been debunked and buried. It is now generally held by most professional translators that nativeness in the target language is not the sole hallmark of a good translator.
A good translator marshals several diverse skills - knowledge and skill in both the source and target cultures and languages; subject knowledge; age; experience; educational qualifications; and location.
Also, it is now increasingly difficult to define nativeness, what about all these people who have grown up, lived and were educated in more than one country, we should embrace this diverse wealth of skill and experience. On the other hand, I feel that some native translators with who have great qualifications and can write brilliantly in their native language do not always have the in depth knowledge of the source language, so accuracy suffers.
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Peter Zhuang
जर्मनी
Local time: 08:59
जर्मन से अंग्रेजी
+ ...
| Instead of disparagement, encouragement | Oct 8, 2014 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Want proof? Check it on yourself. Translate a text into your non-native language and have a native-speaker proofread it or have a native-speaker translator who translates out of your native language also translate the text and then compare the two and be honest or let a native speaker of the target text judge your work.
You could also first translate a text into your non-native language and then translate a similar text out of your non-native language into your native language.
What I am saying is that if you're honest to yourself, you know that you are much more comfortable thinking and processing language in your native language. As I said before, it's not about "translating words and sentences 'correctly", it's more about expressing something in a different language, and do it idiomatically correct. Translating is re-creating ideas in your head in the target language, not word-for-word translation.
Well, if you want water from the Alps, you better make sure it is water from the Alps. But you need to want to drink that water, not just faucet water. But if you can sell that ind of water/translation quality, you should be able to point it out. The proof is in the water.
This article has nothing to do with the language skills of a professional native-speaker translator. If you want, you can compare non-translators' native language skills with those of non-native translators but what is that supposed to prove? That you are better than the professional native-speaker translator? That your translation will be of the same quality as the one provided by a professional native-speaker translator? I don't think so. However you look at it, within our professional community, translators who translate into their native language will trump those who translate into their non-native language. The important word here is professional, and that includes excellent skills in the non-native language in order to understand the source text completely.
You made a claim, and why am I supposed to find the proof myself?
"Water from the Alps" tells people absolutely nothing about the water quality. Water quality can be described quantitatively or qualitatively. Water samples with the same chemical and biological parameters are the same, regardless of their origin. And that is objectivity.
You narrow definition of "native speaker" as someone who learnt a language before his adolescence is an opinion which you have yet to back up. You are telling us that someone who spent months and years to master a language will never be as good as a native speaker, and the only reason for this is his upbringing.
I limit my argument to the English language. If you have the time, please do read the following article on standard English: http://grammar.about.com/od/grammarfaq/a/standardenglish.htm
I would like to highlight a three sections of the text to everyone (emphasis mine):
1. Native speakers of non-standard varieties of English, in other words, the majority of native speakers of English, have never had any real authority over Standard English and have never "owned" it. The actual proprietors may, after all, simply be those who have learned thoroughly how to use a standard English to enjoy the sense of empowerment that comes with it.
2. So those who make authoritative pronouncements about a standard English are simply those who, irrespective of accidents of birth, have elevated themselves, or been elevated, to positions of authority in academe or publishing or in other public areas. Whether or not their pronouncements will continue to be accepted is another matter.
3. On this basis, we may define the Standard English of an English-speaking country as a minority variety (identified chiefly by its vocabulary, grammar, and orthography) which carries most prestige and is most widely understood.
Instead of defining and limiting other people's potential in their profession, and to some extent, disparaging their professional image, I think that it is more constructive to advocate for better quality.
| | | | Phil Hand
चीन
Local time: 15:59
चीनी से अंग्रेजी
| No such thing as standard English, thank goodness | Oct 8, 2014 |
A fie on this debate.
But there is one point worth making: some languages do have standard versions - French springs to mind. But English does not. English is, and can only be, the language spoken by English speakers. That means no-one gets to claim ownership of it.
| | | | Giles Watson
इटली
Local time: 08:59
इतालवी से अंग्रेजी
की याद में | Ultracrepidarian musings | Oct 8, 2014 |
Merab Dekano wrote:
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Robert Rietvelt wrote:
In Holland we got the expression: "Schoenmaker blijf bij je leest", which literally translated into English means "let the cobbler stick to his last", which means "every man to his trade".
I say no more.
[Edited at 2014-10-07 21:10 GMT]
[Edited at 2014-10-07 21:11 GMT]
In German it's "Schuster bleib bei deinen Leisten" (same meaning) whereby "Leiste" (singular) literally means "shoe last"
see: http://www.shoeschool.com/shoeschool/lasts/shoe_lasts_what.html
The same thing in Spanish: "Zapatero, a tus zapatos", which literally means "shoemaker, to your shoes".
The sayings all come from Ancient Greece, as reported by Pliny the Elder and others.
One day, a cobbler pointed out to the great artist Apelles that the shoes in one of his paintings weren't accurate. Apelles duly took note. The cobbler went on to criticise the rest of the painting, causing Apelles to exclaim (in the Latin translation) "Sutor, ne ultra crepidam!" ("Cobbler, stick to footwear!").
I only mention this story because it has given English the glorious verb "ultracrepidate", something translators do if we take on work that falls outside our sphere of knowledge.
Wouldn't it be nice if artists and cobblers could work together, though?
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