| विषय में पृष्ठों की संख्या: < [1 2 3] > | Chinese to English Kudoz—Enough is Enough विषय पोस्ट करनेवाला व्यक्ति: beirenbo
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beirenbo 
Local time: 21:37
विषय आरंभकर्ता | Thanks everybody! | Oct 8, 2006 |
Good and valid points, everyone. Thanks for your insight, Denyce, Stefanie, and Inga. I'm very glad we can discuss this openly; everyone seems incredibly receptive to other peoples' views. Besides, how can I argue with three beautiful women?:) You did not offend me, Stefanie. I just wanted to clarify my meaning. I am not easily offended. Anyway, I am looking forward to conversing with all of you in the future.
Aaron
| | | | William Wu
यूनाइटेड किंगडम
Local time: 02:37
अंग्रेजी से चीनी
+ ...
I did want to post " disagree " with your Answer on Denyce's Example on http://www.proz.com/kudoz/1577814; as you maybe gave the fine answer for glass beads-granules, you haven't given the right form: it is a noun, rather than a verb or sentence; Of course, the native chinese translators have given the right form the same as the source, and then maybe you could reorganise your structure...
| | | | Robert Forstag
संयुक्त राज्य अमरीका
Local time: 22:37
स्पेनी से अंग्रेजी
+ ...
| Response to Mats | Oct 9, 2006 |
I wrote:
(in some cases, "no native speaker would ever say it that way" or "this looks like word salad" would suffice).
Mats replied:
As always this is no help at all. It does not help the asker, it makes him/her only bewildered.
I for one have neither the time nor the vocabulary to explain why the following sentences would constitute incorrect translations of terms in *any* source language into English:
[Context: man saying good... See more I wrote:
(in some cases, "no native speaker would ever say it that way" or "this looks like word salad" would suffice).
Mats replied:
As always this is no help at all. It does not help the asker, it makes him/her only bewildered.
I for one have neither the time nor the vocabulary to explain why the following sentences would constitute incorrect translations of terms in *any* source language into English:
[Context: man saying goodbye to woman after date]:
I have been having nice time and I am wanting to meet you tomorrow night.
[Context: Menu item in Peruvian restaurant]:
Jumping beef
[Context: Proz.com profile advertising translation services]:
I make nice job for you if you have to give me the chance.
All of these sentences are immediately recognizable to any native speaker as incorrect English. Yet how many people can explain *why* no native speaker would make such utterances? More to the point, if you did take the time to do so, do you really think that the person who offered such options would really understand and benefit from such explanations?
Those offering 'translation help' in a language other than their own really need to do so with a large measure of humility (and this is in a best-case scenario). In the kind of situation that Aaron describes, it appears that the persons in question have lost all sense of their (very severe) limitations. This is not appropriate for a forum where professionals are asked to help professionals.
And neither are thoughtful and erudite replies to ridiculous suggestions.
Bob ▲ Collapse
| | | | beirenbo
Local time: 21:37
विषय आरंभकर्ता | I can help you fix your profile if you'd like. | Oct 9, 2006 |
William Wu wrote:
I did want to post " disagree " with your Answer on Denyce's Example on http://www.proz.com/kudoz/1577814; as you maybe gave the fine answer for glass beads-granules, you haven't given the right form: it is a noun, rather than a verb or sentence; Of course, the native chinese translators have given the right form the same as the source, and then maybe you could reorganise your structure...
Buddy,
I believe I understand what you are trying to say, and I will admit that translation you mention was not some of my best work, but I think your comment only helps my case. There is much more to translation than matching nouns with nouns and verbs with verbs. One should not be rewarded simply by providing a translation that matches the syntactical structure of the source material, as you suggest.
By the way, I just viewed your profile. I'm not trying to embarrass you, but there are several minor English errors that could be easily fixed and make it more presentable. For instance, "I am a legal professional..." versus "I a legal professional..." I would be glad to help you with this if you like. I do this as a symbol of goodwill. Please let me know if you'd like my help.
Aaron
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| How about a change? Try the other pair. | Oct 9, 2006 |
Hi Aaron
I suggest have a change. Try the English to Chinese pair, if you haven't already.
Cheers.
Lesley
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Well, I think it would certainly be wrong not to trust native speakers and if one does not, one should be prepared for the consequences.
As to the Kudoz points being awarded for an answer you do not feel is the best, I think a solution would be (as I suggested some time before) to count an agree vote as a point, so that if there are two good answers and votes are split, both answerers get credit.
| | | | randyzou
Local time: 10:37
अंग्रेजी से चीनी
+ ...
Aaron, just do what u think is right, don care about other stuff. The fact is fact, nothing can change that. I am on your side. And I bet I will learn a lot from U!!
Besides,Stefanie, Hi, where did u learn that our chinese are affraid of "losing face". U are so damn right!!!!! That is something I think is a fatal shortcoming of my fellow chinese.
We are sometimes like ostriches, buring our heads in the sand.
[Edited at 2006-10-09 11:22]
| | | | | Moderator missing | Oct 9, 2006 |
Hi Aaron,
I think one of the main problems of the ZH-EN and EN-ZH Kudoz community is the lack of a moderator. This is the reason many of the participants are not even aware of some of the basic rules. It is for example good practice to wait for 24 hours before grading, to not give a duplicate answer, or to put your answer in the "Target term" field, rather than putting general terms like "explanation", "FYI", etc. Why are there so many colleagues, especially in ZH-EN and EN-ZH who w... See more Hi Aaron,
I think one of the main problems of the ZH-EN and EN-ZH Kudoz community is the lack of a moderator. This is the reason many of the participants are not even aware of some of the basic rules. It is for example good practice to wait for 24 hours before grading, to not give a duplicate answer, or to put your answer in the "Target term" field, rather than putting general terms like "explanation", "FYI", etc. Why are there so many colleagues, especially in ZH-EN and EN-ZH who write "FYI"? Because nobody explains that they shouldn't. I really believe many colleagues are simply not aware of the rules. I don't even want to look at the Chinese KOG, because I am sure you will mostly find "FYI" entries instead of useful terms.
Let's hope Proz will soon assign a moderator to the EN-ZH and ZH-EN Kudoz communities.
Stefanie
[Edited at 2006-10-09 11:42] ▲ Collapse
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Denyce Seow
सिंगापोर
Local time: 10:37
चीनी से अंग्रेजी
| Don't know if this is such a good idea... | Oct 9, 2006 |
Aaron Bray wrote:
Buddy,
I believe I understand what you are trying to say, and I will admit that translation you mention was not some of my best work, but I think your comment only helps my case. There is much more to translation than matching nouns with nouns and verbs with verbs. One should not be rewarded simply by providing a translation that matches the syntactical structure of the source material, as you suggest.
By the way, I just viewed your profile. I'm not trying to embarrass you, but there are several minor English errors that could be easily fixed and make it more presentable. For instance, "I am a legal professional..." versus "I a legal professional..." I would be glad to help you with this if you like. I do this as a symbol of goodwill. Please let me know if you'd like my help.
Aaron
I don't know if this is such a good idea. Most, if not all, clients who look for translators on Proz read through the profiles first. When they read a profile written in bad English, they will realise it is not wise to engage that particular translator for translation jobs into English. A profile does reflect a translator's level of quality.
By the way, I'm shocked William charges US$0.03 per word when he is living in Wales. That is more like a rate you charge when you are living in China!
Denyce
[Edited at 2006-10-09 12:20]
| | | | | Losing face and criticism | Oct 9, 2006 |
randyzou wrote:
Besides,Stefanie, Hi, where did u learn that our chinese are affraid of "losing face". U are so damn right!!!!! That is something I think is a fatal shortcoming of my fellow chinese.
We are sometimes like ostriches, buring our heads in the sand.
Hi Randy,
Thank you for your confirmation. I have been studying Chinese for a while now, and I have also lived in China for two years. So there was no way NOT to realize the whole "losing face" thing. It might seem to be a strange and foreign concept to us "lao wai" (foreigners). On the other hand, a foreigner will easily be perceived as aggressive when interacting with Chinese, just because s/he cannot fully incorporate such a foreign concept so easily.
I think we should try to find a way to express constructive criticism in ZH-EN and EN-ZH KudoZ without offending anyone. It should be understood that criticism is necessary and not meant to embarrass others. When I post a disagree in the EN-DE or DE-EN language pair, I am much harsher than in ZH-EN or EN-ZH. Just because I know how sensitive many Chinese react to criticism.
Let's be open-minded. If we see an answer that is clearly wrong, why not say it out (in a friendly and constructive way)? It will be for the benefit of everybody.
Stefanie
| | | | beirenbo
Local time: 21:37
विषय आरंभकर्ता
Why are there so many colleagues, especially in ZH-EN and EN-ZH who write "FYI"? Because nobody explains that they shouldn't. I really believe many colleagues are simply not aware of the rules. I don't even want to look at the Chinese KOG, because I am sure you will mostly find "FYI" entries instead of useful terms.
I did make a comment yesterday to one of the habitual FYIers that it was annoying, so hopefully they will start getting the message.
| | | | | what would I do? | Oct 9, 2006 |
Aaron Bray wrote:
What would you do in these cases?
Aaron
To be honest, if nobody is listening, what's the point? Just jump ship and leave them at it. It sounds to me that you are just wasting your time. It's only kudoZ, after all...
Giovanni
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Fan Gao
आस्ट्रेलिया
Local time: 13:37
अंग्रेजी से चीनी
+ ...
Hi Aaron,
Regarding Kudoz, I think you shouldn't give up but just keep on doing what you're doing. If you provide an answer which is obviously better than others and it doesn't get chosen then it is a pity for the asker but at least you know you've done your bit to try and help. You will also have the satisfaction of knowing that your answer and your help will have been recorded. Others will see it and in the future if they find themselves in a position where they have to ask a ques... See more Hi Aaron,
Regarding Kudoz, I think you shouldn't give up but just keep on doing what you're doing. If you provide an answer which is obviously better than others and it doesn't get chosen then it is a pity for the asker but at least you know you've done your bit to try and help. You will also have the satisfaction of knowing that your answer and your help will have been recorded. Others will see it and in the future if they find themselves in a position where they have to ask a question, they will know that you do offer sound knowledge and advice and answers that can be relied upon to be correct. Also, if you ever feel very strongly about one of your answers that hasn't been chosen, you can always add notes even after the question has been closed. People still go through and view old questions plus a message will be sent to the asker with your comments. You could even send a message to the moderator of the main Chinese forum, Kevin Yang, and maybe he could ensure that the glossary entry is correct for future searches of the same term.
Aaron Bray wrote:
By the way, I just viewed your profile. I'm not trying to embarrass you, but there are several minor English errors that could be easily fixed and make it more presentable. For instance, "I am a legal professional..." versus "I a legal professional..." I would be glad to help you with this if you like. I do this as a symbol of goodwill. Please let me know if you'd like my help.
I'm not sure if this was the the right way to go about helping someone. It comes across as a bit of "tit for tat". I think you should have been the bigger man and just thanked him for his contribution. I don't think it was really ncessary to highlight the mistakes in his profile for everyone to see. It is a very kind gesture you are offering but I think it would have been kinder if you had offered it in a private email to him.
Denyce Seow wrote:
Most, if not all, clients who look for translators on ProZ.com read through the profiles first. When they read a profile written in bad English, they will realise it is not wise to engage that particular translator for translation jobs into English. A profile does reflect a translator's level of quality.
I'm in two minds about this. I agree with Denyce that maybe by presenting a perfectly written profile it could mislead future clients by the level and quality of English actually attainable by their chosen translator but at the same time, your profile is such an important marketing tool. It's the one and only chance you have at Proz of attracting a client who reads it and everyone wants their profile to stand out from the rest and be chosen. Maybe even if it's not perfectly written there may be a link to the translator's personal website which could turn out to be the deciding factor, but that's just a maybe. The fact is though, the profile here really has to make an initial impact for agencies/outsourcers to want to find out more about you. My personal view is that if you are going to present yourself as offering, and being able to supply a very high quality translation into English then you should be prepared to pay to have your work proofread by a native speaker, in the target language, before actually presenting your work to the client.
Good luck and keep up the good work. The fact that you started this forum shows that you are very conscientious and you have a passion for the work you do and for wanting to help people and I think that is admirable in itself.
Fan Gao ▲ Collapse
| | | | Denyce Seow
सिंगापोर
Local time: 10:37
चीनी से अंग्रेजी
| Don't jump yet!! | Oct 9, 2006 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
To be honest, if nobody is listening, what's the point? Just jump ship and leave them at it. It sounds to me that you are just wasting your time. It's only kudoZ, after all...
Giovanni
No, don't give up without trying. The Chinese community has been functioning without supervision for a long time. We do not get disagrees or comments on those not-so-good answers, and some askers do not abide by the Kudoz rules. Recently, Aaron and Giovanni Valenti are giving more comments and showing some answerers that their answers are simply not up to standard. This is a very good start. We need the people in the community to wake up and see that they cannot throw any answers they think will score. We need quality, not quantity and speed. We need discussions, not Google links and a 5-confidence without explanations.
Denyce
[Edited at 2006-10-09 15:42]
| | | | | Time and effort | Oct 9, 2006 |
Denyce Seow wrote:
We need the people in the community to wake up and see that they cannot throw any answers they think will score. We need quality, not quantity and speed. We need discussions, not Google links and a 5-confidence without explanations.
Denyce
[Edited at 2006-10-09 15:42]
Most people are not prepared to work for free to educate others, especially if the process is going to be a long one and for no reward. Are you prepared to invest your time and effort to educate? To argue and get upset? What for? I believe it's almost impossible to stop this trend, because the turn over on this site is quite astonishing. More people will come in and you'll find yourself back to square one. Nevertheless, good luck.
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