| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Mother tongue and translation Thread poster: aruna yallapragada
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| Talk to the author | Oct 24, 2006 |
Heinrich,
very often my clients give me their translations to correct. Very often, I end up asking for the original because I can't understand what they've written. Worse still, I find myself staring at it, wondering if they meant what they have written or whether they actually intended to say something else, especially in the case of false synonyms. Sometimes I ask for the original and the answer comes that there isn't one, they wrote it directly in English.
One particular t... See more Heinrich,
very often my clients give me their translations to correct. Very often, I end up asking for the original because I can't understand what they've written. Worse still, I find myself staring at it, wondering if they meant what they have written or whether they actually intended to say something else, especially in the case of false synonyms. Sometimes I ask for the original and the answer comes that there isn't one, they wrote it directly in English.
One particular technical translation I am doing now is on a topic I have translated for years. I could almost have written it myself. But even so, everything I translate is carefully read by the author himself, who makes notes and then we discuss things together. I find this by far the best way to work.
Jim
[Edited at 2006-10-24 09:14] ▲ Collapse
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When I started this thread it was to mention the "mother -tongue translators only" condition being asked by some translation outsourcers. Maybe they had bad experiences in the past. Sometimes I feel guilty claiming English to be my native tongue. After looking at the discussion going on, I feel I am right, as well as wrong. It is something perhaps that I just have to grin and bear it.
| | | | RobinB 
United States
Local time: 11:32
German to English
yaruna wrote: When I started this thread it was to mention the "mother -tongue translators only" condition being asked by some translation outsourcers.
To honest, you should just go ahead and do it, i.e. rate yourself as a native speaker of English. Looking at your posts in this thread, it's abundantly clear that your command of English is streets ahead of a scarily large number of ProZ members who claim to be native speakers of English, but whose command of English is - to put it diplomatically - more than semi-detached. That just goes to show that the "native speaker" parameter is pretty meaningless in ProZ.
The market rules here, and there is a lot of evidence indicating that there is a substantial market for translators without a native or native-equivalent* command of English. This market may well shrink or even disappear soon, given the hundreds of millions of dollars being pumped into MT, but it's pretty buoyant at the moment.
(* native-equivalent = a command of (written) English that is indistinguishable from that of an educated, knowledgeable native speaker.)
That's not to say, of course, that there isn't a market segment that demands a native or native-equivalent command of English as one (but only one) of the quality criteria it applies. This "high end" of the market really is the preserve of translators with a native/native-equivalent of English and massive subject-area expertise (plus, of course, superb translating skills). It's not a large market in absolute terms, but more than large enough to support the translators who work in it, and to provide them with an extremely satisfactory income. ProZ rules and conventions don't apply to this high end of the market, which rarely makes an appearance in the job postings (when was the last time you saw a job paying EUR 0.20 or more per word in Proz?).
I also agree wholeheartedly with Angela: technical translations often require a command of the target language that far exceeds what most translators can offer. But as I wrote elsewhere recently, most translators also massively overestimate both their linguistic and domain knowledge skills.
| | | | | How many native tongues are there? A test to help. | Oct 24, 2006 |
Yaruna,
There is a famous test in the world of artificial intelligence and psychology known as the Turing test after the man who not only dreamt up the test, but also helped invent the computer.
It is this: if you can't tell the difference between what a computer does and what a human being does, then the computer programme being used constitutes a good theory of human behaviour.
Back in the 1950s it worked by showing records of chess games to human chess player... See more Yaruna,
There is a famous test in the world of artificial intelligence and psychology known as the Turing test after the man who not only dreamt up the test, but also helped invent the computer.
It is this: if you can't tell the difference between what a computer does and what a human being does, then the computer programme being used constitutes a good theory of human behaviour.
Back in the 1950s it worked by showing records of chess games to human chess players and asking them which player was the human and which the computer.
It occurred to me that if you took mother tongue and non mother tongue translations and gave them to mother tongue people (don't have to be translators) to read, if they couldn't tell the difference between them, which was which, then the non mother tongue writers would have clear proof that their language was just as good as any mother tongue writer.
In practice, this would mean that if the PMs were English in your case and if they saw examples of your writing (and if they were intelligent) they could see whether it made any difference or not, and of course how much difference.
Jim ▲ Collapse
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RobinB
United States
Local time: 11:32
German to English
James Davis wrote: It occurred to me that if you took mother tongue and non mother tongue translations and gave them to mother tongue people (don't have to be translators) to read, if they couldn't tell the difference between them, which was which, then the non mother tongue writers would have clear proof that their language was just as good as any mother tongue writer.
Or just as bad, or just as mediocre. The real test is whether highly educated, knowledgeable native speakers can tell the difference, not just your average gumby on the street. I can tell the difference - always - but I'm cheating because I know what to look for.
It's exactly the same with MT. As the CEO of one of the largest MT companies said many years ago, if a human translator gets it wrong 50% of the time at 5 cents a word, and a computer gets it right 50% of the time at 0.0005 cents a word, then there's no contest, is there? As things stand today, computers already pass the "translation Turing" test a lot of the time. And one of the great things about MT is that when it makes mistakes, it tends to make consistent mistakes, and you can begin to see a pattern emerging. When human translators make mistakes, they're often so random and so fundamentally illogical, it's difficult to work out whether their brains were switched on in the first place.
| | | | | Good or Bad but which part of the language? | Oct 24, 2006 |
RobinB wrote:
The real test is whether highly educated, knowledgeable native speakers can tell the difference, not just your average gumby on the street. I can tell the difference - always - but I'm cheating because I know what to look for.
Yes I think I would probably agree with you, but one problem here is that I don't think anybody knows anywhere near the whole of their own language. To give a case in point, not long ago I taught English to a class of top professional economists, I was the only one in the room without a Phd. I looked for an information gap, something, they could teach me or I could teach them in English, to take the artificiality out of it. I would teach them the language for financial accounting. The most senior of the economist decided it was best to look for something else, when not one of them knew what the second or third item on a balance sheet was. Accounting and economics are two different languages.
Some of the top Economists in Italy can generally pass for near mother tongue English writers, but that is as long as they write about economics and not the weather or practically anything else. Clearly because they have read so widely/or narrowly in economics in English.
I will never forget another student a psychoanalyst, she translated psychonalytic texts from English into Italian and I helped her during her English lesson. She could understand the psychoanalytic theory without too much trouble. One day she threw down a paper, What's this?. It was the transcript of an interview of two 14 year old semi literate mentally ill delinquents. And no it wasn't really the idioms she couldn't grasp as the complexity of the grammar (just gumps off the street), "What you 've 'ad to 've done if you hadn't 've had to 've done what I'd 've 'ad to 've done... " or something like that.
On balance, you need an expert economist for economics, an expert accountant for accounting and expert gump of the street for gump of the street language.
Having arrived at this point, I think some useful advice to Yaruna is to study the style of original sub languages, dialects if you like, and learn a given limited style. In translating financial reports, I see myself pass from the CFO's reporting-on-the-accounts language to the Personnel Director's language to the lawyers language. All different. All needing to be studied and learnt.
Jim
[Edited at 2006-10-24 16:59]
| | | | RobinB
United States
Local time: 11:32
German to English
| LSPs/domain language | Oct 24, 2006 |
James Davis wrote: Accounting and economics are two different languages.
Don't I know it - I'm an IFRS specialist myself, but my areas of specialisation also include monetary economics and tax. It's not just economists who don't understand the language of accounting - IR people are prime culprits here.
On balance, you need an expert economist for economics, an expert accountant for accounting and expert gump of the street for gump of the street language.
And that's what the translator has to mirror by specialising. You have to be able to translate economics texts like an economist would write them and accounting texts like an accountant would write them (actually, much better than your average economist or accountant!). OK, you didn't pick up on the gumby reference (Python), but that's not relevant if you're not a Python fan.
Having arrived at this point, I think some useful advice to Yaruna is to study the style of original sub languages, dialects if you like, and learn a given limited style.
That's what specialised translation is all about, isn't it? We have to mimic the domain languages of the target culture, and (translation so often being the art of intelligent recycling) also have to be the world's best - and most choosy - recyclers.
Robin
| | | | Lia Fail (X)
Spain
Local time: 18:32
Spanish to English
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| original writing in a language is not comparable to translation | Oct 25, 2006 |
James Davis wrote:
reading the forum here, two things entered my head. One is, that some of the most stunning (recent) English literature I have read has been written by Indians whose mother tongue is not English. Arundhati Roy is just one of many (which of course I can't think of now).
It's not a fair comparison to align original writing with translation. Any author is perfectly entitled to write as he/she pleases, in the end the market judges.
If you were to translate that writer, you would be required to respect that author's use of langauge...
But when we translate standard (non-literature) texts, the source author doesn't usually write as an "author" so we don't convey 'idiosyncrasies' or 'peculiar' uses of language to the reader.
In other words, a simple way to view it is that the author of literature writes for him/herself and often is lucky enough to capture an audience who accepts and appreciates each and every word, even the punctaution.
But translation is about writing for teh reader in most cases (leaving literature aside, and even then the translator still has to mediate cultures and so take the reader into account). And the "authorless" text (the manual, website, clinical trial etc) has to stand on its own 2 feet and be written in a non-idiosyncratic language that is acceptable to a reader who is NOT exploring languuage use but who is reading for information.
[Edited at 2006-10-25 00:54]
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Lia Fail (X)
Spain
Local time: 18:32
Spanish to English
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| sub-standard market | Oct 25, 2006 |
RobinB wrote:
The market rules here, and there is a lot of evidence indicating that there is a substantial market for translators without a native or native-equivalent* command of English. This market may well shrink or even disappear soon, given the hundreds of millions of dollars being pumped into MT, but it's pretty buoyant at the moment.
....
That's not to say, of course, that there isn't a market segment that demands a native or native-equivalent command of English as one (but only one) of the quality criteria it applies. This "high end" of the market really is the preserve of translators with a native/native-equivalent of English and massive subject-area expertise (plus, of course, superb translating skills). It's not a large market in absolute terms, but more than large enough to support the translators who work in it, and to provide them with an extremely satisfactory income.
ProZ rules and conventions don't apply to this high end of the market, which rarely makes an appearance in the job postings (when was the last time you saw a job paying EUR 0.20 or more per word in Proz?).
Undoubtedly there is a market for sub-standard translators, but people who serve that market are destined to make a bad living from translation...
The key to accessing the high-end that Robin describes is to specialise, in a minimum of source languages, a single target language and a restricted field of learning.
Yoruna commented that there wasn't enough work in her native language. I wonder how translation ever occurred to her then - a question of curiosity - as normally, practical economic sense, not to mention common sense means one should have from an early stage of learning, have been directed to another source of income (perhaps as supplement).
| | | | Lia Fail (X)
Spain
Local time: 18:32
Spanish to English
+ ...
| It's a standard.... | Oct 25, 2006 |
yaruna wrote:
When I started this thread it was to mention the "mother -tongue translators only" condition being asked by some translation outsourcers. Maybe they had bad experiences in the past. Sometimes I feel guilty claiming English to be my native tongue. After looking at the discussion going on, I feel I am right, as well as wrong. It is something perhaps that I just have to grin and bear it.
And not -at all - a reliable one, but on the face of it, if one is contracting a translator and especially if one doesn't know the source language, you choose a native with lots of training and qualifications...yet it's all meaningless, as it's no guarantee that the individual has any "translation" skill. But it's all there is (especially when you can't judge the target language).
A good translator has, above all, translation skills, and these are developed as a consequence of their personality and training:
Personality: they are modest, objective, honest etc about their abilities in a general sense. They don't claim to know many languages, translate to as many, cover all fields etc. Have a look at a few profiles of people that impress you (maybe 2 source languages, 1 target language, a few fields of expertise).
Training: they have had experience as a translator, in researching, in dealing with clients, etc. They are often not available for work for days or weeks, they usually cost a lot - they have, in fact, established themselves.
Maybe teh fact that you feel guilty about claiming EN as your mother tongue is a good sign, as well as indicating that you are really not comfortable about it. Maybe you should ask someone (a top-line translator, of course) to check your next EN translation and clear up your own doubts once and for all. Then you could sleep at night:-)
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RobinB wrote:
but that's not relevant if you're not a Python fan.
Robin
Help! albatross, Spanish Inquisition, but who were the Gumby's?
| | | | | Indian literature | Oct 25, 2006 |
[quote]Lia Fail wrote:
James Davis wrote:
reading the forum here, two things entered my head. One is, that some of the most stunning (recent) English literature I have read has been written by Indians whose mother tongue is not English. Arundhati Roy is just one of many (which of course I can't think of now).
Lia Fail wrote:
It's not a fair comparison to align original writing with translation. Any author is perfectly entitled to write as he/she pleases, in the end the market judges.
Yes of course. Obviously I didn't make my point clearly enough.
In my youth, I read the authors Conrad and Hemmingway. Conrad is Polish, Hemmingway was brought up in the Carribean on a Spanish speaking Island and spent a lot of time in Spain. I found them impressive writers. Conrad is very psychological, he offers you thoughts you don't forget. Hemmingway has a very vivid style.
Years later as a Teacher of English as a Foreign Language (TEFL) a student asked me if we could read Hemmingway in class. OK I said. After ten minutes, I realised that Hemmingway was breaking all the rules on word order. Hemmingway wrote using Spanish word order. Of course he has poetic licence.
Again looking, reading Conrad later in life through the eyes of a TEFL, I again found myself wanting (out of habit) to correct his 'homework'.
The point is Reading Arundhati Roy through the eyes of a TEFL, there is just nothing to correct! It is stunning as literature to read first off.
It is even more stunning to read it again, as a translator, and as a TEFL, and to think this is the most bilingual bilingual writer I have ever read. It passes the "Turing test" 100%.
My point is that when it comes to English as a second language, Indians are in a much higher class than others, you just have to look at the quality of the English literature they are producing.
Of course, I once had a highly educated, bilingual teaching colleague, who struggling with a translation confessed, "I can't translate, what does this mean Jim?".
Jim
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Angela Arnone
Local time: 18:32
Member (2004)
Italian to English
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| Interesting discussion | Oct 25, 2006 |
Just one little favour ... can we keep to the topic as much as possible, please?
Sorry to be a bore ... but if I don't do it, someone will slap my wrists - then I won't be able to type.
 
Thanks
Angela
| | | | Ruxi
German to Romanian
+ ...
| The field is more important | Oct 25, 2006 |
I first heard about the connection between mother-tongue and translation jobs, here, on ProZ and it scared me. I saw my chances very diminished on the market, suddenly.
Years ago, when I started to translate, at least in my country there were only few translators and when needing a translation it was important and people were happy to find a translator at all.
Today the market has changed in almost all countries and it is an explosion of translators, so outsourcers need a way to sele... See more I first heard about the connection between mother-tongue and translation jobs, here, on ProZ and it scared me. I saw my chances very diminished on the market, suddenly.
Years ago, when I started to translate, at least in my country there were only few translators and when needing a translation it was important and people were happy to find a translator at all.
Today the market has changed in almost all countries and it is an explosion of translators, so outsourcers need a way to select them.
I think mother tongue is perhaps more important in literar translations, but even there there may be people who have enough language skills and talent to do wonderfull work, without being native speaker.
In other fields the experience and the education are more important.
When I had my exams for translation certificates I had the surprise to see on the list people who were (at least according to their names) native speakers and did not pass the exam. Probably they did not know the field.
Another problem is to define mother tongue.
Is mother tongue only the language heard first in your family?
Many people on this site wrote they live for years in a foreign country (from childhood), or learned in certain circumstances a language very well, but still do not have the courage to translate in that language and I wonder why?
Yes, to speak a language is one thing and to translate, a nother, but it still a discrimination to exclude from the begining from a job people who are not native speakers, not even knowing their talent and capacity to translate.
I was helped by somebody to make a CV (for other fields than translation) in the foreign country I live. That person told me that if I speak and work in a language the way he saw, if I can think and create documents and translate, I should put ths second language I know since I was 5, as a second mother tongue. I didn't do it and still think about it.
Here I was told in other thread that started as a child, a foreign language can not be a mother tongue.
Also I never could understand which language is more important to be native in translation - you must know very well the source language to understand the text and its meaning and also the destination language to put it correctly in. So according to this, a translator should be native speaker in both languages of his pair, which usually does not happen (only bilingual can do it).
To conclude for the OP:
1. I know that English has a history and importance in many countries like India, China aso and people know it as well as their own mother tongue and learn it at school.
2. More important for translation is the field, so set up your translation fields according to your education, hobby or work experience.
3. Outsourcers should also be teached that: it is wrong to make discrimantions before testing a person and sample tests or references and also titles (diplomas) in translation are important.
4. Sad enough, but there is a high competition on translation market, especially on wide languages like English, French, Spanish. Still, you have the trump of your other native language and you should use it. Few foreign people know/learn Indian languages in order to translate.
5. Don't let you discouraged by such discriminations, India is in an economical development and is becoming a big world power, so it will be enough work for you. Concentrate on a field and Indian languages as destination language in your pairs.
Finally: I also feel like you: knowing very well foreign languages help so few to get a job in a foreign country, not being mother tongues, to translate not to talk (no jobs for my mother tongue and for the other pairs I am not native speaker, so out a priori). But in my original country translators have a lot of jobs and get a lot of money of it. I used to be successfull there too.
Foreign outsourcers are more selective as national, so concentrate on national ones. ▲ Collapse
| | | | RobinB
United States
Local time: 11:32
German to English
| Gumbies/Cross-cultural domain knowledge | Oct 25, 2006 |
James Davis wrote:
Help! albatross, Spanish Inquisition, but who were the Gumby's?
An entire family of gumbies. If you remember, they did a brutalist performance of Chekov's The Cherry Orchard ("Open da door and come in!"). Fairly early Python.
Last off-topic post, Angela. Promise. But it maybe goes to show that there's more to a native command of the language than just the linguistic element. You gotta have the culture, too. And not just the general, popular culture, but also the domain-specific culture.
For example, if you're translating business/finance/accounting texts, it's important to have a good grounding in cross-cultural business/finance/accounting issues. I think that reading Hofstede's "Culture's Consequences", specifically chapters 7 to 9, is far more useful to financial translators than any dodgy "translatology" theory propounded by the self-appointed "translation theorists". The same applies to other works based on Hofstede's pioneering analysis, for example by Gray, Doupnik and Nobes. I would particularly recommend Lisa Evans's research paper "Language, translation and the problem of international accounting communication" (Accounting, Auditing and Accountability Journal Vol. 17 No. 2, 2004). The only translation writer I've ever found helpful is Nida, and I know how disliked he is by many - especially continental European - translation academics (which is maybe why I find him so interesting...).
So at least I got back on-topic, didn't I?
Robin
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