| विषय में पृष्ठों की संख्या: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Rates' dependence on country of residence विषय पोस्ट करनेवाला व्यक्ति: Speranza
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| A piece of string | Dec 22, 2006 |
Lia Fail asked that old, old chestnut:
So...how long is a piece of string:-)
It's twice as long as a piece half its size and half as long as a piece double its size.
And I've never understood why people keep asking the same question.
| | | | Speranza 
Local time: 14:01
स्पेनी से रूसी
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विषय आरंभकर्ता | Convention, not law | Dec 22, 2006 |
Jackie wrote:
So, to reiterate Maciek's question ... enforcement: how do you do it? If you can't enforce a law, of course, the law by definition is useless.
What we need is a convention, not a law. I suggest we should voluntarily respect each other. If everybody (clients, agencies and vendors) knows that a high-quality translator won't work for less than such-and-such amount per hour/word/whatever, there will be nothing to enforce.
What's wrong about this? Do you think translators from expensive countries will flow to cheaper regions in order to spend less while earning the same? Or that the sudden enrichment of our colleagues in underdeveloped countries will cause a social revolution there?
Jackie, it's not the first time I read you, and I like both your style and your way of thinking, but what you are saying here is an obvious contribution to the poverty. Are you suggesting you should pay less to the Managuan guy simply because he does not dare charge what he would if he were in Europe? Believe me, he will easily find a way to spend some extra money if he gets an opportunity to earn it. And if he does, who will be hurt? Himself? No, he will earn more. The Catalan translator? No, because she will not have to fear unbeatable price competition from abroad. You? Not really, because for you it's an investment and it will pay off. The society? No, because the richer other countries get, the less illegal immigration there will be. So once again: what's wrong here??
Besides my situation this morning was slightly different. Imagine you've found those two equally great translators you mentioned, and they are offering you equal rates. And then you send a message to the Nicaraguan one saying he should not be that expensive because he lives in Nicaragua!
As to factory workers, their situation is entirely different and should probably be discussed separately (and, I guess, not by us). If we start ignoring the fact that the nature of our profession enables us to operate globally rather than locally, then why do we need these online marketplaces at all?
And finally the question that is really crucial here: if you are right about the perception of geographies, then what's the point of being so totally honest for us online vendors? In fact what you are saying means I can double my income by simply replacing Russian Federation in my profile with Germany or Japan, and there will be no damage involved because my clients will receive translations of exactly the same quality anyway. Am I right or am I right?
[Edited at 2006-12-22 02:50]
| | | | Speranza
Local time: 14:01
स्पेनी से रूसी
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विषय आरंभकर्ता | I didn't mean that | Dec 22, 2006 |
By using inverted commas you are implying that these are my exact words, which they are not!
Lia, sorry, I'm afraid I didn't make myself clear. I meant if the outsourcer had told me that, I would have regarded his response as normal, but he said smth very different.
| | | | | To sum it all up | Dec 22, 2006 |
A Western client has the right to shop for Eastern rates - and an Eastern translator has every right to demand Western rates. What's good for the cat is also good for the dog, as we say in my neck of the woods.
'Nuff said!
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Andrea Ali
आर्जेंटीना
Local time: 10:01
सदस्य (2003)
अंग्रेजी से स्पेनी
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| As simple as this | Dec 22, 2006 |
A client from the US contacts me. I think no one living there would accept a translation rate of USD 0.03/word. WHY SHOULD I???
IMHO, this is the point here. The important thing is where the outsourcer lives, not the translator!
That is why we must be aware of international rates. Once you get to know the international market, you can decide who you work with.
Try working at USD 0.02/0.03, normal hours, anywhere in the world, and attending courses/wo... See more A client from the US contacts me. I think no one living there would accept a translation rate of USD 0.03/word. WHY SHOULD I???
IMHO, this is the point here. The important thing is where the outsourcer lives, not the translator!
That is why we must be aware of international rates. Once you get to know the international market, you can decide who you work with.
Try working at USD 0.02/0.03, normal hours, anywhere in the world, and attending courses/workshops/conferences, buying software and dictionaries, updating hardware and making a decent living. ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE!
And most important, really good clients do not look for low rates, they look for good and reliable translators
Listen to this "repetitive" Au(rora) of ours. She is right and I am "a living proof" of it!
Cheers,
Andrea ▲ Collapse
| | | | Hynek Palatin
चेक गणराज्य
Local time: 14:01
अंग्रेजी से चेक
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It has been discussed so many times before and it's amazing how some of us are still trying to deny the very basic principles of economics.
Maciek, you are limiting yourself psychologically. You are a professional. In a year or two, you will have lots of jobs (I'm surprised you don't have already) and you will be able to choose who you work for (and for what rates).
| | | | CMJ_Trans (X)
Local time: 14:01
फ्रांसीसी से अंग्रेजी
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| from the "gentleman's" end of the telescope | Dec 22, 2006 |
Let me begin by saying that I have every sympathy with Nadejda in her indignation.
However, allow me to say a few words from the client point of view to bring a little more perspective to this interesting exchange.
I should start by making it clear that I have no idea who the client is in this particular instance, nor do I necessarily condone his actions and comments: at the very least, he was lacking in tact. But, I must also say that, as far as I am concerned, his motivation... See more Let me begin by saying that I have every sympathy with Nadejda in her indignation.
However, allow me to say a few words from the client point of view to bring a little more perspective to this interesting exchange.
I should start by making it clear that I have no idea who the client is in this particular instance, nor do I necessarily condone his actions and comments: at the very least, he was lacking in tact. But, I must also say that, as far as I am concerned, his motivations are perfectly clear. And, seen from his perspective, perfectly natural.
Now, don't start getting excited or angry with me for daring to make such a comment. Let me explain where I'm coming from before you judge.
I am a client on occasion. I commission work from translators in a variety of pairs (for those among you who are not already aware). The translations are not for me personally but for my end clients.
What am I looking for? Obviously the best value for money. What do I mean by that? Answer: the best possible quality at the lowest possible price. I should add that I take no commission for my efforts and that the translators are paid directly by the end clients. I have no personal or vested interest.
The "gentleman" who has caused such collective indignation is probably just like me. The big difference is that he is probably not an ex-translator and he is probably only interested in saving money. And why shouldn't he be? We live in a market economy and on a global market. Internet is wonderful but the downside is that clients can access more markets, some of them cheaper. This guy has doubtless heard somewhere that there are "third-world" (sorry about the term but I am describing a concept) translators who can charge less than those living in "richer" countries, where the cost of living is higher. So he goes looking via Proz for the "best deal" - best to him, that is. In his little mind, Russia is one of those cheaper places (sorry but people who do not know the country, have never been there are have not progressed in their thnking beyond ex-USSR often do still hang on to that belief).
So when he receives an offer from Russia that is not cheap and cheerful, what does he do? He tries to beat the price down, just as he would do with any supplier for any product. His argument in this case was both ham-fisted and - as it transpires - off the mark. But you can't blame the guy for trying. Maybe another of his big illusions just bit the dust. The fact is that if he is in industry where companies are relocating virtually every day to countries where labour is cheaper, then he is being quite logical in his own mind. People are increasingly conditioned to think that way. I work a lot in the transport and logistics business and I can assure you that even the very big companies are increasingly using Eastern European drivers rather than the home-grown variety to drive their trucks as the only way to keep costs down and not lose their end customer business. They may not like it, we may not like it but that's a market economy for you.
So don't blame the guy for trying it on. Blame him perhaps for being tactless. Try, if you can, to band together to impose your rates on the market (how? being another issue). But don't be surprised that clients should be trying to keep their costs down. Remember, translation is a service industry and services are the first thing that goes out of the window when savings have to be made. People always fondly imagine that the secretary who speaks a little of another language will do the translation just as well or well enough to pass muster.
In short, be wary, but don't shoot yourselves in the proverbial foot.
All that said, I would never work for one centime less than 0.15 euros a word MINIMUM. But then I'm not touting for business....... ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Don't blame the guy... | Dec 22, 2006 |
CMJ_Trans wrote:
So don't blame the guy for trying it on. Blame him perhaps for being tactless. Try, if you can, to band together to impose your rates on the market (how? being another issue). But don't be surprised that clients should be trying to keep their costs down.
That's true, CMJ_Trans, the guy is trying on it because he positively knows he'll probably find someone who will charge less than that, somewhere... but I guess the point here are translators' own views of this international market.
I absolutely agree with Nadejda, Aurora and Andrea. If I work for a company in the USA, for instance, I won't be charging less than others just because I live in Argentina; it's really nonsense to think I'll slave away just because the person hiring me knows I pay lower taxes than him.
After working for some time in this international ¿jungle? it's easy to notice that, as Andrea says, "really good clients do not look for low rates, they look for good and reliable translators".
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Maciek Drobka
पोलैंड
Local time: 14:01
सदस्य (2006)
अंग्रेजी से पोलिश
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| I do have lots of jobs... | Dec 22, 2006 |
Hynek Palatin wrote:
Maciek, you are limiting yourself psychologically. You are a professional. In a year or two, you will have lots of jobs (I'm surprised you don't have already) and you will be able to choose who you work for (and for what rates).
I do have lots of jobs, but they're mainly from Polish agencies. That's why I'm trying to partner with Western European agencies to increase my average rate.
And as to limiting myself psychologically, I was hoping I wasn't doing that. In fact, I am very positive about my marketing effort I am going to launch early next year. Thinking positive!
Maciek
| | | | Aurora Humarán (X)
आर्जेंटीना
Local time: 10:01
अंग्रेजी से स्पेनी
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| Neither Mother Theresa nor a Translators' Abuser | Dec 22, 2006 |
CMJ_Trans wrote:
What am I looking for? Obviously the best value for money.
I want the same. I want Aleph to be a healthy agency, one of the aims (not the only one though,) has to do with making money.
So here I am again with the agency's hat...
Nothing makes me happier than contacting a translator to offer him/her a good job (you know, good rates, reasonable deadlines and bla bla bla) Do I want to have a good margin? Of course I do! (I want that Volvo! ), but I don't get a good margin at the expense of the translators.
Three years ago, I had four agencies in Spain. For the Spanish market, their rates were very good, but they did not allow me to pay good rates (I repeat: I ENJOY paying good rates, Heidi as this may sound. I know of other translators who run translation agencies and have similar feelings.) What did I do? I asked them for an increase (but a 2 per cent of 'little' is 'little + 2%'  ).
So what did I do? In 2004, I got divorced from two of the agencies. In 2005, I got divorced from the other two.
Bottom line:
I want quality translators. When I saw that I could neither pay a good rate nor assure my Volvo... I decided to... find cheaper translators? No way! I started looking for better clients.
We all want to make money, but there are ethical limits to profit making. (There should be.)
Have a great day!
Au
[Editado a las 2006-12-22 12:29]
| | | | Andrea Riffo
चिली
Local time: 10:01
अंग्रेजी से स्पेनी
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Aurora Humarán wrote:
We all want to make money, but there are ethical limits to profit making. (There should be.)
Au
This is what I meant (back in page 1). I understand that end clients want to save money, and I certainly understand that agencies' profit is what they charge the end client, minus what they pay translators/editors.
I don't object to any of this but if an agency comes to me and tells me to charge 0.03 cents per word because my colleagues in Argentina and Chile do so, and then I visit their website and see that they charge their end clients a minimum of 0.14 cents/word for a general text, I find this outrageous. I mean, if they are paying 0.03 for a translation, can you imagine what they offer for an edition??? This is an abusive practise, IMHO.
Cheers all!
| | | | Irene N
संयुक्त राज्य अमरीका
Local time: 07:01
अंग्रेजी से रूसी
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| My would-be reply | Dec 22, 2006 |
Dear Sir,
The fact that your knowledge of Russian and, likely, the rest of the world's history/geography/economy goes back to public school history program of cold war times, and remains blissfully unchanged to date, is your problem. However, may I suggest that arrogance in geometrical progression to ignorance leads to international conflicts of a far larger scale than "US outsourcer - Russian translator".
You are entitled to hunt for your bargains all the way to the m... See more Dear Sir,
The fact that your knowledge of Russian and, likely, the rest of the world's history/geography/economy goes back to public school history program of cold war times, and remains blissfully unchanged to date, is your problem. However, may I suggest that arrogance in geometrical progression to ignorance leads to international conflicts of a far larger scale than "US outsourcer - Russian translator".
You are entitled to hunt for your bargains all the way to the moon but not in the least to show me my place under the Sun. Please take time to familiarize yourself with the economic conditions of the country you are doing business with, and don't forget that Russia is spread over 10 time zones with cost of living varying just like it does between ND, NY and CA. In the event of future correspondence, please refine your communication skills.
PS: don't ask me "what is the weather in Russia" - half of my grey hair come from this question asked by PhDs!
Sincerely,
Me, Dearest:-)
Changed my mind about another addition. Never mind editing.
[Edited at 2006-12-22 19:18] ▲ Collapse
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| Myths and Legends about polish agencies rates... | Dec 23, 2006 |
Maciek Drobka wrote:
...As I said, my average rate now is EUR0.04/word, and I am happy to accept jobs priced at EUR0.05-0.06/word. These jobs only come from international outsourcers; if you work with agencies in Poland, you rarely go above EUR 0.03/word.
Yesterday I finished a medium-size job paid by an agency in Poland. My rate was HIGHER THEN EUR 0.06/word.
The world is full of surprises, Maciek. But to be able to see something, you need to believe that it exist...
In Poland, when someone is hungry, has many possibilities:
1) eat an hot-dog for 1,5 euro
2) eat in cheap and good restaurant for 6 euro
3) eat in expensive and good restaurant for 24 euro
"Rates" vary from 25%-100%-400%. Every seller has clients.
So the choice is your! What do you want to sell?
Daniele
[Edited at 2006-12-23 15:25]
| | | | Saifa (X)
Local time: 14:01
जर्मन से फ्रांसीसी
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| Yes, there are different markets! | Dec 23, 2006 |
Daniele Martoglio wrote:
"Rates" vary from 25%-100%-400%. Every seller has clients.
So the choice is your! What do you want to sell?
Daniele
[Edited at 2006-12-23 15:25]
You are totally right, Daniele.
The same occurs with Spain. Yes, there are agencies (not that many, and you do not find them through internet platforms...) which are ready to pay a lot more than 0,06 or 0,07 cents to get quality and pay punctually after 30 days.
I think it is the same with translations as with other products. Daniele, you spoke over restaurants, I have in mind clothing. You can find jeans for 10,00 €, 40,00 € and 80,00 €. I prefer to buy quality jeans and wear them 10 years rather then buying cheap ones every year.
There are different translation markets. I am neither looking for clients on Internet platforms nor bidding for jobs offered there.
A propos restaurants: the best and most expensive Indian restaurant where I have ever eaten is in... Poland (Gdynia)
Good luck!
[Edited at 2006-12-23 16:01]
| | | | juvera
Local time: 13:01
अंग्रेजी से हंगरी
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| Quote of the year 2006 | Dec 31, 2006 |
Daniele Martoglio wrote:
To be able to see something, you need to believe that it exist.
Thank you, Daniele.
Judith
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