| विषय में पृष्ठों की संख्या: [1 2] > | German client bankruptcy - any experience?? विषय पोस्ट करनेवाला व्यक्ति: Ramunas Kontrimas
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Hi,
A client in Germany (start-up, not an agency) is getting bankrupt, owing me around 900.
The law firm handling it said it could be 2-3 years till the matter is settled -- is that true?
Now I get a letter from Justizkasse in Hamburg, requesting me to pay €22 for "calculation costs" -- and i don't know if I'll get a penny from the owed amount. Is this normal?
Thanks for any input.
| | | | Kevin Fulton 
संयुक्त राज्य अमरीका
Local time: 03:29
जर्मन से अंग्रेजी
| You're an unsecured creditor | Feb 11 |
In any bankruptcy proceeding, you're at the end of the line after secured creditors, that is, you'll get paid from any assets remaining after the client's secured collateral (equipment leased, personal guarantees to banks, etc.) is liquidated. In Germany this can take a while. Start-ups are usually highly leveraged, so be prepared to take a significant loss. Sorry.
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One of my clients (a Belgian agency) also filed for bankruptcy. The law firm handling the case asked me some documents (POs, invoices), which I delivered. 18 months after that I received a notification from the commercial court saying that I wouldn’t get any payment. Fortunately, it wasn’t a big amount…
| | | | | But is it normal for the creditor to pay any fees? | Feb 11 |
Shouldn't all this be paid out of the bankrupt's estate? But I am not a lawyer and the only bankruptcy I was involved in was a private "consumer insolvency".
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Ramunas Kontrimas
लिथुएनिया
Local time: 10:29
सदस्य (2018)
अंग्रेजी से लिथुआनी
+ ...
विषय आरंभकर्ता
Dr. Matthias Schauen wrote:
Shouldn't all this be paid out of the bankrupt's estate? But I am not a lawyer and the only bankruptcy I was involved in was a private "consumer insolvency".
That's what I'm interested in. Of course, I have no power here. And for what calculation? I know what they owe me and they now it without any calculation. I guess if i don't pay, I'll be out...
| | | | | It does take years | Feb 11 |
Two of my customers (businesses) filed for bankruptcy, one in 2001 (€3700) and one in 2010 (€1500). I was required by the liquidators to send my outstanding invoices, and after a few years (likely two-three), got nothing from the first case and €1000 from the second. As Kevin mentioned, we're the last ones in the queue.
While both cases were settled in France, I never paid any management fees or whatever for sending my invoices and registering as a creditor to the people in ch... See more Two of my customers (businesses) filed for bankruptcy, one in 2001 (€3700) and one in 2010 (€1500). I was required by the liquidators to send my outstanding invoices, and after a few years (likely two-three), got nothing from the first case and €1000 from the second. As Kevin mentioned, we're the last ones in the queue.
While both cases were settled in France, I never paid any management fees or whatever for sending my invoices and registering as a creditor to the people in charge.
Philippe ▲ Collapse
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Ramunas Kontrimas wrote:
(...) a letter from Justizkasse in Hamburg, requesting me to pay €22 for "calculation costs" -- and i don't know if I'll get a penny from the owed amount.
Doesn't sound too far-fetched to me. If a debtor doesn't pay and you go the legal collection route, you're also paying an up-front administrative fee (at least in my country), which you only get back if the debtor has sufficient assets.
| | | | Susanne Döring
जोर्डन
Local time: 10:29
सदस्य (2017)
अंग्रेजी से जर्मन
+ ...
Ramunas Kontrimas wrote:
Hi,
A client in Germany (start-up, not an agency) is getting bankrupt, owing me around 900.
The law firm handling it said it could be 2-3 years till the matter is settled -- is that true?
Now I get a letter from Justizkasse in Hamburg, requesting me to pay €22 for "calculation costs" -- and i don't know if I'll get a penny from the owed amount. Is this normal?
Thanks for any input.
Can you quote the German term they used? Maybe that would help me to understand it better and give you an answer.
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Ramunas Kontrimas
लिथुएनिया
Local time: 10:29
सदस्य (2018)
अंग्रेजी से लिथुआनी
+ ...
विषय आरंभकर्ता
Susanne Döring wrote:
Ramunas Kontrimas wrote:
Hi,
A client in Germany (start-up, not an agency) is getting bankrupt, owing me around 900.
The law firm handling it said it could be 2-3 years till the matter is settled -- is that true?
Now I get a letter from Justizkasse in Hamburg, requesting me to pay €22 for "calculation costs" -- and i don't know if I'll get a penny from the owed amount. Is this normal?
Thanks for any input.
Can you quote the German term they used? Maybe that would help me to understand it better and give you an answer.
Thanks Susanne, tried attaching it.
[Edited at 2025-02-12 07:03 GMT]
| | | | Susanne Döring
जोर्डन
Local time: 10:29
सदस्य (2017)
अंग्रेजी से जर्मन
+ ...
... this makes it more clear.
The 22 € are a sort of administrative fee - costs. In brackets it says the calculation - why 22€ - is on the backside of the letter.
The rest explaines that you can enter an objection against the amount, but until they decide on this objection you have anyway to pay within two weeks after receiving the letter.
It is not said, but AFAIK if you don't pay your claim will not be considered.
I hope this explanation will help you.
... See more ... this makes it more clear.
The 22 € are a sort of administrative fee - costs. In brackets it says the calculation - why 22€ - is on the backside of the letter.
The rest explaines that you can enter an objection against the amount, but until they decide on this objection you have anyway to pay within two weeks after receiving the letter.
It is not said, but AFAIK if you don't pay your claim will not be considered.
I hope this explanation will help you.
As to the time it might need until you get any money, yes, as others have said, it could need long time - from six months to several years and you might not get any. If you can afford it, pay the 22€, send them all documents they ask for - and then forget about it for now. If you get anything after a while, consider it as a bonus.
Sounds cynical, maybe, but that's what I would have told any former client of mine. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ramunas Kontrimas
लिथुएनिया
Local time: 10:29
सदस्य (2018)
अंग्रेजी से लिथुआनी
+ ...
विषय आरंभकर्ता
Susanne Döring wrote:
... this makes it more clear.
The 22 € are a sort of administrative fee - costs. In brackets it says the calculation - why 22€ - is on the backside of the letter.
The rest explaines that you can enter an objection against the amount, but until they decide on this objection you have anyway to pay within two weeks after receiving the letter.
It is not said, but AFAIK if you don't pay your claim will not be considered.
I hope this explanation will help you.
As to the time it might need until you get any money, yes, as others have said, it could need long time - from six months to several years and you might not get any. If you can afford it, pay the 22€, send them all documents they ask for - and then forget about it for now. If you get anything after a while, consider it as a bonus.
Sounds cynical, maybe, but that's what I would have told any former client of mine.
Thank you for your kind words Here's the back side.
| | | | Susanne Döring
जोर्डन
Local time: 10:29
सदस्य (2017)
अंग्रेजी से जर्मन
+ ...
Ramunas Kontrimas wrote:
Thank you for your kind words Here's the back side.
Yes, as I expected: it says every person who wants to make a claim has to pay these 22€ - it gives the #of the Gerichtskostengesetz - law on court fees. Lots of legalese, you don't need to understand the whole lot, it does not help you.
Good luck!
(Whatever you do, your time will be best used by working for someone else while waiting for the outcome of this process - as I said, you might get something, but more probably not.)
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| I have never paid for administration of bankruptcy | Feb 12 |
Sorry to hear of your problem. I don´t know about the German rules, but a charge for administration sounds odd to me.
I have had two clients file for bankruptcy - one in Denmark in 2010, and one in Norway last year.
There was no request for payment from me in either case.
In 2010 it took a couple of years before everything was wound up, but I was lucky, and did not lose much. (I did not get paid either.)
The administration is still ongoing, of course... See more Sorry to hear of your problem. I don´t know about the German rules, but a charge for administration sounds odd to me.
I have had two clients file for bankruptcy - one in Denmark in 2010, and one in Norway last year.
There was no request for payment from me in either case.
In 2010 it took a couple of years before everything was wound up, but I was lucky, and did not lose much. (I did not get paid either.)
The administration is still ongoing, of course, for the Norwegian client, but there was no charge. I am not expecting to get paid for my last two invoices.
_______________________________________
I have translated letters to creditors in the course of my career - and in Denmark the administration fees are normally paid out of the estate. I don´t know about German law, but in Denmark, when assets are realised, administration and taxes are paid first, followed by employees´ wages. Other creditors may receive a proportion of what they are owed or nothing at all. Most get nothing.
In practice, employees´ wages are paid immediately from a central fund, which then claims a reimbursement from the bankrupt estate when the assets are realised. Anything left is divided proportionately between secured creditors.
You can probably find corresponding information about the German rules on the internet, and decide whether you want to pay € 22 for a tiny chance of getting paid a small sum in a couple of years. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Susanne Döring
जोर्डन
Local time: 10:29
सदस्य (2017)
अंग्रेजी से जर्मन
+ ...
Christine Andersen wrote:
Sorry to hear of your problem. I don´t know about the German rules, but a charge for administration sounds odd to me.
I have had two clients file for bankruptcy - one in Denmark in 2010, and one in Norway last year.
There was no request for payment from me in either case.
In 2010 it took a couple of years before everything was wound up, but I was lucky, and did not lose much. (I did not get paid either.)
The administration is still ongoing, of course, for the Norwegian client, but there was no charge. I am not expecting to get paid for my last two invoices.
_______________________________________
I have translated letters to creditors in the course of my career - and in Denmark the administration fees are normally paid out of the estate. I don´t know about German law, but in Denmark, when assets are realised, administration and taxes are paid first, followed by employees´ wages. Other creditors may receive a proportion of what they are owed or nothing at all. Most get nothing.
In practice, employees´ wages are paid immediately from a central fund, which then claims a reimbursement from the bankrupt estate when the assets are realised. Anything left is divided proportionately between secured creditors.
You can probably find corresponding information about the German rules on the internet, and decide whether you want to pay € 22 for a tiny chance of getting paid a small sum in a couple of years.
I agree with you on the chances. As to the fee, I have about twenty years experience in Germany as a lawyer - these are genuine.
| | | | Sebastian Witte
जर्मनी
Local time: 09:29
सदस्य (2004)
अंग्रेजी से जर्मन
+ ...
| I think I have worked out what the EUR 22 claim is about | Feb 12 |
Ramunas Kontrimas wrote:
Susanne Döring wrote:
(...)
Thank you for your kind words Here's the back side.
"Nachträgliche Forderungsanmeldung möglich
Auch nach dem Ablauf der durch das Gericht festgesetzten Anmeldefrist können Insolvenzforderungen noch angemeldet werden. Allerdings kann dies mit Kosten verbunden sein: Wird die Forderung zwischen dem Ablauf der Anmeldefrist und der Niederlegung der Tabelle zur Einsichtnahme beim Insolvenzgericht nachträglich angemeldet, kann sie noch in die Tabelle aufgenommen und im regulären Prüfungstermin zur Prüfung gestellt werden.
Sofern jedoch der Insolvenzverwalter oder ein anderer Insolvenzgläubiger dem widerspricht, ordnet das Insolvenzgericht entweder die Prüfung der Forderung im schriftlichen Verfahren an oder bestimmt hierfür einen besonderen Prüfungstermin. Beides geschieht auf Kosten des säumigen Gläubigers, wobei die Gebühr derzeit bei EUR 22,00 je Gläubiger liegt (Nr. 2340 Anlage 1 zu § 3 Abs. 2 GKG)."
https://www.cmshs-bloggt.de/insolvenzrecht/insolvenzforderung-vs-masseforderung/
It basically says in that blog entry that claims may indeed be asserted once the Court's filing deadline for doing so has expired. If the insolvency administrator or another creditor objects, the Insolvency Court has the claim reviewed in written proceedings. The Court charges the creditor for this, the fee currently being 22 euros (No. 2340 Appendix 1 in regard to Sec. 3(2) Court Fees Act).
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