| विषय में पृष्ठों की संख्या: [1 2 3] > | Client changing amount on PO, what to do? विषय पोस्ट करनेवाला व्यक्ति: Thao Tran
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Sheila Wilson 
स्पेन
Local time: 20:25
सदस्य (2007)
अंग्रेजी
+ ...
| This is one reason why I hate POs | Jul 26, 2018 |
Thao Tran wrote:
Now they changed back to the original X amount for the 1st project on their system.
I told them I will ONLY deliver the remaining 4 files if they changed back to the revised 2X amount on the first project.
That seems eminently reasonable. Reverting back to an earlier agreement is a common problem. People have the first agreement in their records; they update the new PO (or whatever), but they don't go back and update the original agreement - and that's where they get the data from for the next PO! It happens all the time - new bank accounts, new addresses, etc., all suffer the same fate. I know I've done it myself as well as having had clients do it.
I'm starting to not having respect and trust for this agency and thinking about asking advance payment for the remaining 4 files together with immediate payment for the first two files.
If you're getting bad vibes from this particular client - like they're doing it deliberately - then I think that's a separate, though linked, issue. My personal advice would be to drop them. If you can't trust a client, why work with them? There are all sorts of ways they can make your life miserable if they want to. If you start demanding advance payment in full in a B2B relationship, you're going to get their backs up. That just isn't how B2B business is normally conducted and it's effectively telling them that you think they're lying b***s who are trying to do you out of your money, so it isn't going to help the relationship.
| | | | Thao Tran
वियतनाम
Local time: 02:25
सदस्य (2017)
अंग्रेजी से वियतनामी
+ ...
विषय आरंभकर्ता
Hi Sheila,
Thank you very much for your thought. So if I start to ask for advance payment, I should get ready to drop this project and this client because it's unlikely that they would do it?
One more thing Sheila, since you have a lot more of experiences, can I ask what if they hold me responsible for late project delivery because they haven't responded to my request changing the amount on PO?
I told them explicitly that the file is done and they need to respond... See more Hi Sheila,
Thank you very much for your thought. So if I start to ask for advance payment, I should get ready to drop this project and this client because it's unlikely that they would do it?
One more thing Sheila, since you have a lot more of experiences, can I ask what if they hold me responsible for late project delivery because they haven't responded to my request changing the amount on PO?
I told them explicitly that the file is done and they need to respond to my request before I deliver the file.
I'm never late on my delivery so I'm a bit concerned...What if they are going to rate me 1 star on my Proz profile on late delivery?...
Regards,
Thao
Sheila Wilson wrote:
Thao Tran wrote:
Now they changed back to the original X amount for the 1st project on their system.
I told them I will ONLY deliver the remaining 4 files if they changed back to the revised 2X amount on the first project.
That seems eminently reasonable. Reverting back to an earlier agreement is a common problem. People have the first agreement in their records; they update the new PO (or whatever), but they don't go back and update the original agreement - and that's where they get the data from for the next PO! It happens all the time - new bank accounts, new addresses, etc., all suffer the same fate. I know I've done it myself as well as having had clients do it.
I'm starting to not having respect and trust for this agency and thinking about asking advance payment for the remaining 4 files together with immediate payment for the first two files.
If you're getting bad vibes from this particular client - like they're doing it deliberately - then I think that's a separate, though linked, issue. My personal advice would be to drop them. If you can't trust a client, why work with them? There are all sorts of ways they can make your life miserable if they want to. If you start demanding advance payment in full in a B2B relationship, you're going to get their backs up. That just isn't how B2B business is normally conducted and it's effectively telling them that you think they're lying b***s who are trying to do you out of your money, so it isn't going to help the relationship. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Please explain | Jul 26, 2018 |
Hi Thao
Thao Tran wrote:
Originally I quoted X amount for an automotive project. I delivered the project and notified client the high difficulty level and couldn't collaborate on the next projects of similar topic with the current X amount. Client revised PO, changed to 2X amount.
You say you quoted X for the first project. My guess is knowing what it was about. You then delivered the project and told them that due to the high level of difficulty you couldn't collaborate on the NEXT projects of similar topics with the same rate. The way I read it, you are accepting X for the first project and are requesting a higher rate (2X) for the following projects. I don't think you could increase your rate for the first project after delivery. This should have been agreed before you even started translating. If I'm misunderstanding anything, let me know.
It seems that they are keeping their word and paying you 2X for the following projects from what you've said.
| | | | Thao Tran
वियतनाम
Local time: 02:25
सदस्य (2017)
अंग्रेजी से वियतनामी
+ ...
विषय आरंभकर्ता | First PO was revised to 2X now back to X amount | Jul 26, 2018 |
Hi Marissa,
Thank you very much for taking the time to share your opinion.
The agency and I agreed on X amount on the 1st project. After I delivered and notified high difficulty level, they revised PO of the first project to 2X amount (together with next 5 projects of similar topic) and told me explicitly via email that they had changed to 2X amount (again on the FIRST project) before we discussed subsequent project. Now they changed back to original X amount on the FIR... See more Hi Marissa,
Thank you very much for taking the time to share your opinion.
The agency and I agreed on X amount on the 1st project. After I delivered and notified high difficulty level, they revised PO of the first project to 2X amount (together with next 5 projects of similar topic) and told me explicitly via email that they had changed to 2X amount (again on the FIRST project) before we discussed subsequent project. Now they changed back to original X amount on the FIRST project without notifying me.
Regards,
Thao
Marissa Aguayo Gavilano wrote:
Hi Thao
Thao Tran wrote:
Originally I quoted X amount for an automotive project. I delivered the project and notified client the high difficulty level and couldn't collaborate on the next projects of similar topic with the current X amount. Client revised PO, changed to 2X amount.
You say you quoted X for the first project. My guess is knowing what it was about. You then delivered the project and told them that due to the high level of difficulty you couldn't collaborate on the NEXT projects of similar topics with the same rate. The way I read it, you are accepting X for the first project and are requesting a higher rate (2X) for the following projects. I don't think you could increase your rate for the first project after delivery. This should have been agreed before you even started translating. If I'm misunderstanding anything, let me know.
It seems that they are keeping their word and paying you 2X for the following projects from what you've said. ▲ Collapse
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| In that case... | Jul 26, 2018 |
If they had explicitly told you that they were increasing the rate for the first PO as well, then you should ask them to pay for the first project in full (at the 2X rate) before you send them the following projects. Let them know that they are all ready as you say and that you don't want to miss the deadline (you could even send a watermarked screenshot so there's proof that you've worked on the files), but that you need to be paid what was agreed for the first project.
How did you... See more If they had explicitly told you that they were increasing the rate for the first PO as well, then you should ask them to pay for the first project in full (at the 2X rate) before you send them the following projects. Let them know that they are all ready as you say and that you don't want to miss the deadline (you could even send a watermarked screenshot so there's proof that you've worked on the files), but that you need to be paid what was agreed for the first project.
How did you notice they had modified the first PO? When? When did you message them about it? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sheila Wilson
स्पेन
Local time: 20:25
सदस्य (2007)
अंग्रेजी
+ ...
| I'd misunderstood | Jul 26, 2018 |
Thao Tran wrote:
So if I start to ask for advance payment, I should get ready to drop this project and this client because it's unlikely that they would do it?
It's what I would expect to happen, Thao - but that doesn't mean it definitely will in this particular case, of course.
But I see now from the exchange with Marissa that I'd misunderstood your situation. I thought you'd accepted that you were going to earn very little on the first file, but that you were going to get paid more for subsequent ones. And that they were now not wanting to pay that extra.
So, you say that the #1 PO is coming up too low again? Okay, that's one problem to be sorted out. But what about the PO for the work you're currently doing? Is that showing the amount you expect? If so, I suggest you deliver the work. You're not really risking any more - you've already used the time. Once you've done everything you're contractually obliged to do, i.e. delivered all the outstanding work, then you can start dealing with making them pay what they said they'd pay. If you have the email exchanges then they can't really defend paying you less. If you don't deliver on time then things could get problematic as you'd be at fault too.
| | | | Georgie Scott
फ्रांस
Local time: 21:25
फ्रांसीसी से अंग्रेजी
+ ...
| Admin errors | Jul 26, 2018 |
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
It's easy to assume they are mucking around on purpose - and they may well be - but before issuing ultimatums, I would approach the issue in a way that implies you believe it to be an administrative error.
I wouldn't leave it open to discussion, just politely point out that there is a mistake in their PO and remind them of all the terms they have agreed to, ie. send them a summary of the di... See more "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
It's easy to assume they are mucking around on purpose - and they may well be - but before issuing ultimatums, I would approach the issue in a way that implies you believe it to be an administrative error.
I wouldn't leave it open to discussion, just politely point out that there is a mistake in their PO and remind them of all the terms they have agreed to, ie. send them a summary of the different projects and their associated fees.
Given that they agreed to update the fee for a project that had already been completed, they may be well-intentioned but simply poorly organized... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Thao Tran
वियतनाम
Local time: 02:25
सदस्य (2017)
अंग्रेजी से वियतनामी
+ ...
विषय आरंभकर्ता | Client wiped out all POs and canceled the project | Jul 26, 2018 |
Hi Sheila,
Thank you for helping me again.
Client just wiped out all POs, i.e. when I went on their website, everything disappeared, I can't submit POs (but I do have email of their accounting team), and canceled the project with me.
I already sent them all work I 've done.
What would you do next if you were me? I mean I already thought of Blue Board, but when I should submit the review and what else I can do...?
Regards,
Tha... See more Hi Sheila,
Thank you for helping me again.
Client just wiped out all POs, i.e. when I went on their website, everything disappeared, I can't submit POs (but I do have email of their accounting team), and canceled the project with me.
I already sent them all work I 've done.
What would you do next if you were me? I mean I already thought of Blue Board, but when I should submit the review and what else I can do...?
Regards,
Thao ▲ Collapse
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Thayenga
जर्मनी
Local time: 21:25
सदस्य (2009)
अंग्रेजी से जर्मन
+ ...
Thao Tran wrote:
Client just wiped out all POs, i.e. when I went on their website, everything disappeared, I can't submit POs (but I do have email of their accounting team), and canceled the project with me.
I already sent them all work I 've done.
What would you do next if you were me? I mean I already thought of Blue Board, but when I should submit the review and what else I can do...?
Regards,
Thao
Hi Thao,
at first I thought that maybe someone there made a mistake, these things happen. Regardless of what may or might not have happened, you still have your original PO and can prove that you have submitted the first project. This means that the customer owes you payment for the work you have done.
Send them an email with your invoice and politely request payment for your work. You didn't mention anything about the customer having been dissatisfied with your work. So no complains, job accepted.
In which country is your (ex-?) customer? See if you can call them or send them a registered letter, if they don't reply to your email.
You have a binding contract, so they must pay you.
All the best,
Thayenga
| | | | Thao Tran
वियतनाम
Local time: 02:25
सदस्य (2017)
अंग्रेजी से वियतनामी
+ ...
विषय आरंभकर्ता | Too deep into matter to be simply administrative errors | Jul 26, 2018 |
Hi Georgie,
Great quote!
PM and Vendor Coordinator just told me explicitly about the rate upgrade (2X) via email and I went to their site to check, it was correct (as of yesterday, July 25). I didn't receive the revised PO (I should have asked but I worked with this agency before on smaller projects so I had some trust for them).
When I spotted the change, I notified PM immediately and asked PM to change it back to the upgraded rate. He told me I had agreed... See more Hi Georgie,
Great quote!
PM and Vendor Coordinator just told me explicitly about the rate upgrade (2X) via email and I went to their site to check, it was correct (as of yesterday, July 25). I didn't receive the revised PO (I should have asked but I worked with this agency before on smaller projects so I had some trust for them).
When I spotted the change, I notified PM immediately and asked PM to change it back to the upgraded rate. He told me I had agreed to original PO so the first file Is now back to X rate, no longer 2X rate.
I told me PM I can't deliver any more files if he just changed the PO amount behind my back, without notifying me.
He then cancelled the project with me, blaming me agreeing to original PO (X amount for 1st file) and now I want 2X.
But Georgie, I agree with your suggestion on the administrative error approach. In my first email notifying the PM, i should have simply asked him to change it back to 2X, and that it could probably be an administrative error.
Regards,
Thao
Georgie Scott wrote:
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
It's easy to assume they are mucking around on purpose - and they may well be - but before issuing ultimatums, I would approach the issue in a way that implies you believe it to be an administrative error.
I wouldn't leave it open to discussion, just politely point out that there is a mistake in their PO and remind them of all the terms they have agreed to, ie. send them a summary of the different projects and their associated fees.
Given that they agreed to update the fee for a project that had already been completed, they may be well-intentioned but simply poorly organized... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Thao Tran
वियतनाम
Local time: 02:25
सदस्य (2017)
अंग्रेजी से वियतनामी
+ ...
विषय आरंभकर्ता | UK-based client | Jul 26, 2018 |
Hi Thayenga,
Thank you for sharing your thought.
The agency is UK-based with 4.8 star on Proz. I worked with them on smaller projects before, everything was great until this big project (big to me, 12,000 words in total if they didn't cancel the project with me).
I'm reading about registered letter now.
How do you deal with unpaid or under pay clients generally and European-based clients specifically?
Regards,
Thao
Thayenga wrote:
Thao Tran wrote:
Client just wiped out all POs, i.e. when I went on their website, everything disappeared, I can't submit POs (but I do have email of their accounting team), and canceled the project with me.
I already sent them all work I 've done.
What would you do next if you were me? I mean I already thought of Blue Board, but when I should submit the review and what else I can do...?
Regards,
Thao
Hi Thao,
at first I thought that maybe someone there made a mistake, these things happen. Regardless of what may or might not have happened, you still have your original PO and can prove that you have submitted the first project. This means that the customer owes you payment for the work you have done.
Send them an email with your invoice and politely request payment for your work. You didn't mention anything about the customer having been dissatisfied with your work. So no complains, job accepted.
In which country is your (ex-?) customer? See if you can call them or send them a registered letter, if they don't reply to your email.
You have a binding contract, so they must pay you.
All the best,
Thayenga
| | | | Thayenga
जर्मनी
Local time: 21:25
सदस्य (2009)
अंग्रेजी से जर्मन
+ ...
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Sheila Wilson
स्पेन
Local time: 20:25
सदस्य (2007)
अंग्रेजी
+ ...
Thao Tran wrote:
Client just wiped out all POs, i.e. when I went on their website, everything disappeared, I can't submit POs (but I do have email of their accounting team), and canceled the project with me.
I already sent them all work I 've done.
What would you do next if you were me? I mean I already thought of Blue Board, but when I should submit the review and what else I can do...?
Oh dear, it does seem as though they want to get nasty  . Keep every scrap of evidence you can - print out emails (just in case), take screenshots, compile a chronological list of events, especially if there have been any phone calls. And follow Thayenga's advice:
Thayenga wrote:
Send them an email with your invoice and politely request payment for your work. You didn't mention anything about the customer having been dissatisfied with your work. So no complains, job accepted.
Don't worry about not having a correct PO, or indeed any PO. You have a legal right to invoice for your work. I'd send it by ordinary email at the moment, if payment isn't overdue, with just a short covering note. I personally don't believe that antagonising clients unduly is helpful. Time enough for the registered letter with the final demand (you can find examples online) once the payment is overdue.
I'm not sure the Blue Board is the best thing to do at this stage. Sometimes it's a common civility to other translators, to avoid them being caught in a trap. But I suspect this is a one-off snarl-up and it might serve you best to allow them some time to find a solution without bad publicity. Once the payment is overdue, then of course you should give them a poor rating.
I don't think there's really anything else you can do until the payment is overdue, apart from replying in a polite but firm way to any communications from them. But you should be thinking about what you would accept as a solution. You have a right to the full amount, don't forget that, but perhaps you'd only get that after a court hearing. Maybe you'd be willing to accept a negotiated settlement, if they offer? That's something for you to decide.
| | | | | Canceled after delivery? | Jul 26, 2018 |
Could you clarify this: so you delivered all the files for the entire project, and they "canceled" the project AFTER that?
What do you mean by "canceled"? Did it just disappear from their online project platform, or did they actually send you a project cancellation notice of some kind?
| | | | Tina Vonhof (X)
कनाडा
Local time: 13:25
डच से अंग्रेजी
+ ...
| Win-win or lose-lose? | Jul 26, 2018 |
Hello Thao,
I'm sorry things went off the rails for you here but I think it could have been handled differently. Consider this: you originally agreed to a fee (X) for the first project. When you discovered that the project was more difficult and time-consuming than you had anticipated, you asked for, and the agency agreed to, a higher fee (2X) for the subsequent projects. That seems reasonable to me.
You also asked for a retroactive increase in fee (2X) for the first p... See more Hello Thao,
I'm sorry things went off the rails for you here but I think it could have been handled differently. Consider this: you originally agreed to a fee (X) for the first project. When you discovered that the project was more difficult and time-consuming than you had anticipated, you asked for, and the agency agreed to, a higher fee (2X) for the subsequent projects. That seems reasonable to me.
You also asked for a retroactive increase in fee (2X) for the first project. Originally the agency (the PM I assume) agreed and issued a new PO (which seems more than reasonable to me) but once the project ended up on their platform, that increase was lost in translation (an administrative error, as Georgie suggested, which was handled by a different group of people than the PM). I think at this point you should have let it go and be satisfied with the increased fee for the subsequent projects. That was a 'win-win' situation, whereby you got a large part of what you had asked for and you still had your project and a good relationship with the agency.
If you want to change an existing agreement, in translation and in other aspects of life, all you can do is ask nicely and be prepared to take 'no' for an answer. The other party does not owe you anything. By insisting on it you end up, as you have now, in a 'lose-lose' situation: you lose a client, the agency lost a translator and no-one gained anything.
I agree with what Thayenga that now you should send them an email with your invoice (at the original fee X) and politely ask for payment for the project you finished. Wait and see what happens. I don't think any attempt to blame the agency, or go after them as a bad payer, or give them a bad rating is called for in this situation.
[Edited at 2018-07-26 15:52 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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