| विषय में पृष्ठों की संख्या: < [1 2 3] > | Offering post-editing services: yes or no? विषय पोस्ट करनेवाला व्यक्ति: Elisa Fernández Vic
|
|---|
| Please excuse my ignorance, but | Aug 27, 2015 |
could an MT output of e.g. a technical text, together with a good TB and TM produce something reasonably useful, where post-editing might be justified?
I have never considered it (because I would find it frustrating and boring), but I once saw a test for post-editing from an agency and thought that the MT wasn't too bad, but that might just have been the test?
| | | | | PEMT has its uses | Aug 28, 2015 |
If you can bear to do it and the client pays a reasonable rate for your TIME, however they work it out, then as you say, MT is not going away.
I have seen some, based on TMs and whole sentences, where about half of it was usable. But the rest had to be translated from scratch. It is HARD WORK catching all the inaccuracies - singulars and plurals that don't match, negatives that are missed or introduced when they should not be there, homonyms (although some of those are so absurd tha... See more If you can bear to do it and the client pays a reasonable rate for your TIME, however they work it out, then as you say, MT is not going away.
I have seen some, based on TMs and whole sentences, where about half of it was usable. But the rest had to be translated from scratch. It is HARD WORK catching all the inaccuracies - singulars and plurals that don't match, negatives that are missed or introduced when they should not be there, homonyms (although some of those are so absurd that they hit you in the eye...) and over-consistent translations that miss the different shades of meaning. Collocations that are wrong...
I get a block after a short time. I know something is wrong, but cannot for the life of me think how to correct it. I have to go away for half an hour, and then look only at the source and translate it from scratch.
_____________________________
It depends on how you yourself work with translating.
My absolute aim is to get it right, as far as possible, first time.
I read the source through, pencil in hand, and find terminology and things like that, possibly drafting a challenging phrase or two. Most of the process is only in my head, in any case where it is more or less routine.
Then I translate, checking where I need to, but aiming to get a flow, and as close to the final result as possible.
When I proofread, I intend it to be largely that, i.e. tidying up commas and typos, not editing. Of course, I rearrange a sentence here and there, and I may make quite a lot of changes, but in principle, if I had to deliver the text without proofreading it, it would be basically fit for the client's purpose.
In art, this approach is like a water-colour painter or fresco artist.
You have the work in your head, or prepared, and then you produce the final result. Any mistakes and inaccuracies have to be removed and retouched, so it is preferable by far to get it right first time.
Translation is NOT like creating a sculpture, where you start with a block of wood or marble or whatever, and chip away bits here and there until you get the details right.
I feel MT is more like that approach.
Or like carving in wood with a chainsaw... I have seen one or two quite impressive efforts, but if you want detail, then you need someone with skills, talent and a whole range of chisels and tools...
Chainsaws are quite useful for felling trees and perhaps for roughing out the block before the sculptor starts, but if that is not the way you work, then PEMT will be a pain!
If you don't suffer newbies and human amateurs gladly when proofreading, you will hate PEMT, so stay away from it for your own sanity's sake.
[Edited at 2015-08-28 09:15 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer 
संयुक्त राज्य अमरीका
Local time: 05:02
अंग्रेजी से जर्मन
+ ...
| PEMT - there to go! | Aug 28, 2015 |
Christine Andersen wrote:
If you can bear to do it and the client pays a reasonable rate for your TIME, however they work it out, then as you say, MT is not going away.
I disagree. It doesn't have its uses and it's not going to stay. And you are never going to be paid a reasonable rate for the time you waste on this fool's errand. Sorry, nothing personal, just my assessment of the whole concept.
It stays for those who are gullible enough to take a text "assembled" by a machine that obviously is not human (an algorithm lottery game if you will), toss it in the trash, then start from scratch, translate the original anew and get paid for an "editing" job. Do you like to look at it and start picking through the broken pieces of language? What is this? A new professional approach to editing? Are you trying to punish yourself for something?
No, thank you.
I use technology like anyone else, but not this. That is not comparable with one's own responsible use of glossaries or CAT tools.
We shouldn't encourage people to do this or say that PEMT is here to stay.
Here to stay? No, not as far as I am concerned. Have you read more on the subject? I think you realize yourself that this is "pseudo editing" of something that surely can't be considered a "translation." Please, don't tell me that MT is a valid term for translation by a machine. Machines don't translate.
There are links in this thread to other forum posts. I encourage anyone to read on if they still need to be convinced that this is just the latest gimmick used by irresponsible agencies to profit from you.
But it seems anything is good enough for a session that you can pay for right here. I am not surprised.
[Edited at 2015-08-28 16:17 GMT]
| | | | Sheila Wilson
स्पेन
Local time: 10:02
सदस्य (2007)
अंग्रेजी
+ ...
| Bernhard, you're only relating it to your own areas | Aug 28, 2015 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
It doesn't have its uses and it's not going to stay. And you are never going to be paid a reasonable rate for the time you waste on this fool's errand. Sorry, nothing personal, just my assessment of the whole concept.
It stays for those who are gullible enough to take a text "assembled" by a machine that obviously is not human (an algorithm lottery game if you will), toss it in the trash, then start from scratch, translate the original anew and get paid for an "editing" job. Do you like to look at it and start picking through the broken pieces of language? What is this? A new professional approach for editing? Are you trying to punish yourself for something?
That really is a highly biased representation of the facts, not an 'assessment of the whole concept'. You specialise, according to your profile, in areas such as the cinema, literature, advertising, marketing... Yes, these are areas where I don't believe MT will ever be worth the paper it's written on. For that reason, I would never get involved in PEMT either (as a marketing specialist). In fact, I've never heard anyone suggest that MT will ever be producing novels or adverts.
But can't you see it might be different for those who work on highly standardised technical manuals, for example? Areas that have been translated using CAT tools for many years now and contain multiple examples of standard phrasing. MT alone can't do the whole job, but it might well come up with the exact same phrasing that an experienced professional would come up with in a lot of cases, with the rest needing tweaking.
| | |
|
|
|
jyuan_us
संयुक्त राज्य अमरीका
Local time: 05:02
सदस्य (2005)
अंग्रेजी से चीनी
+ ...
| My case is different to yours | Aug 28, 2015 |
John Fossey wrote:
The little I have tried them, it's more work than translating from scratch.
In my case, editing MT translation takes 25% less time than translating from scratch.
I don't take Post editing job because I feel I'm robbed off the 25% saving.
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
संयुक्त राज्य अमरीका
Local time: 05:02
अंग्रेजी से जर्मन
+ ...
| See how you like it | Aug 28, 2015 |
but please don't promote it even though you never used it. (I suppose you haven't.)
Sheila Wilson wrote:
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
It doesn't have its uses and it's not going to stay. And you are never going to be paid a reasonable rate for the time you waste on this fool's errand. Sorry, nothing personal, just my assessment of the whole concept.
It stays for those who are gullible enough to take a text "assembled" by a machine that obviously is not human (an algorithm lottery game if you will), toss it in the trash, then start from scratch, translate the original anew and get paid for an "editing" job. Do you like to look at it and start picking through the broken pieces of language? What is this? A new professional approach for editing? Are you trying to punish yourself for something?
That really is a highly biased representation of the facts, not an 'assessment of the whole concept'. You specialise, according to your profile, in areas such as the cinema, literature, advertising, marketing... Yes, these are areas where I don't believe MT will ever be worth the paper it's written on. For that reason, I would never get involved in PEMT either (as a marketing specialist). In fact, I've never heard anyone suggest that MT will ever be producing novels or adverts.
I also work in the area of law/legal texts (one of my specialties) as well as a few technical fields (engineering, IT, microwave security technology, and a few more) where I use CAT tools quite frequently. And I have seen MT text and know what I am talking about. I've also discussed this before and read up on the subject.
Bottom line: the term PEMT is a misnomer. This is neither editing nor translating. That's why I reject the concept. Much worse, it's a monstrosity. And it's pretty clear that whoever wants you to do this doesn't belong to the clientele willing to pay you adequately for the time you need to "fix up" that monster of a "translation" (it's not a translation anyway and it's not ready for editing).
Sheila Wilson wrote:
But can't you see it might be different for those who work on highly standardised technical manuals, for example? Areas that have been translated using CAT tools for many years now and contain multiple examples of standard phrasing. MT alone can't do the whole job, but it might well come up with the exact same phrasing that an experienced professional would come up with in a lot of cases, with the rest needing tweaking.
No. Unless things are repeated exactly, no machine will even slightly render something that can be taken as a "translation." Machines don't think, ergo they don't translate. You have to check every sentence and it's not something a human translated so you need to assume it can always be wrong.
You say MT alone can't do the job. I say you shouldn't use MT at all. You should use CAT tools where appropriate and do it responsibly but that doesn't warrant the use of a machine that comes up with a text that supposedly needs some editing??!! That's like adding an SM-like step to the translation process.
And you say "it might well come up with the exact same phrasing that an experienced professional would come up with in a lot of cases, with the rest needing tweaking. That's some kind of machine. Like an experienced professional? You really think so? You are really serious? It's more like playing the lottery.
And what are people getting paid for this kind of over-convoluted translation process disguised as editing?
But hey, I am just warning people. If you want to do it because some people toss this around like the new manna from heaven, go for it. See how you like it. Just count me out!
PS: You can probably tell that I'm a little ticked off. Again, nothing personal. It's just the topic. I appreciate your input in any case.
[Edited at 2015-08-28 14:12 GMT]
[Edited at 2015-08-29 04:35 GMT]
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
संयुक्त राज्य अमरीका
Local time: 05:02
अंग्रेजी से जर्मन
+ ...
jyuan_us wrote:
John Fossey wrote:
The little I have tried them, it's more work than translating from scratch.
In my case, editing MT translation takes 25% less time than translating from scratch.
I don't take Post editing job because I feel I'm robbed off the 25% saving.
You better tell us more. Got any examples?
| | | | Sheila Wilson
स्पेन
Local time: 10:02
सदस्य (2007)
अंग्रेजी
+ ...
| You see, that's what I don't go along with | Aug 28, 2015 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
You say MT alone can't do the job. I say you shouldn't use MT at all. You should use CAT tools where appropriate
I know the "you" isn't directed at me personally, but I'm sure I'm not alone in not taking kindly to being told what I should and should not do by a peer.
But hey, I am just warning people.
More like reading the riot act, actually . Let's discuss the issue openly, by all means, and air our grievances. But please remember most of the people who read this forum are fellow professionals and not completely naïve idiots who'll do anything that agencies tell them to do.
| | |
|
|
|
jyuan_us
संयुक्त राज्य अमरीका
Local time: 05:02
सदस्य (2005)
अंग्रेजी से चीनी
+ ...
| Several factors | Aug 28, 2015 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
jyuan_us wrote:
John Fossey wrote:
The little I have tried them, it's more work than translating from scratch.
In my case, editing MT translation takes 25% less time than translating from scratch.
I don't take Post editing job because I feel I'm robbed off the 25% saving.
You better tell us more. Got any examples?
1. I type very slowly and it did make myself more productive when I can copy a lot of phrases from the machine generated translation.
2. For some specialized text the machine can do a very good job. I had the experience of finishing 1000 words in one hour editing the translation I generated with Google Translate but my normal speed is only 300 words an hour.
3. I cans gie you an extreme example to illustrate MT can save you time:
If you are asked to translate 200 country names, you may earn the income for translating about 400 words by one click. It will take you less tan 1 minute to finish it
| | | | John Fossey
कनाडा
Local time: 05:02
सदस्य (2008)
फ्रांसीसी से अंग्रेजी
+ ...
One common use for MT is "gisting" of large volumes blog and review comments. But anyone who has had to translate this kind of source text knows that their writers care little about correct grammar or spelling, which completely confuses the MT engine. A human translator is challenged enough trying to determine what the writer is trying to say. Computers are subject to GIGO (garbage in, garbage out) while a human translator can follow a thread and try to comprehend the authors' intentions. Th... See more One common use for MT is "gisting" of large volumes blog and review comments. But anyone who has had to translate this kind of source text knows that their writers care little about correct grammar or spelling, which completely confuses the MT engine. A human translator is challenged enough trying to determine what the writer is trying to say. Computers are subject to GIGO (garbage in, garbage out) while a human translator can follow a thread and try to comprehend the authors' intentions. The problem here is that the MT engine may produce output that sounds right but isn't, so a post-editor is lost without retranslating from the source. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Phil Hand
चीन
Local time: 17:02
चीनी से अंग्रेजी
jyuan_us wrote:
If you are asked to translate 200 country names, you may earn the income for translating about 400 words by one click. It will take you less tan 1 minute to finish it
This is a good point, I think: when the "text" to be translated is not a block of natural language, but a list, it seems likely that MT could be a good way to save time.
But...
Sheila wrote:
...highly standardised technical manuals, for example?
I agree with Bernhard on this one, Sheila. It's a funny thing that people who don't do them always imagine technical manuals to be very mechanistic bits of translation. They're not, at all. The nuances of making processes clear in dead text vary considerably from language to language, and it takes a surprising amount of thought and insight to translate well.
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
संयुक्त राज्य अमरीका
Local time: 05:02
अंग्रेजी से जर्मन
+ ...
jyuan_us wrote:
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
jyuan_us wrote:
John Fossey wrote:
The little I have tried them, it's more work than translating from scratch.
In my case, editing MT translation takes 25% less time than translating from scratch.
I don't take Post editing job because I feel I'm robbed off the 25% saving.
You better tell us more. Got any examples?
1. I type very slowly and it did make myself more productive when I can copy a lot of phrases from the machine generated translation.
2. For some specialized text the machine can do a very good job. I had the experience of finishing 1000 words in one hour editing the translation I generated with Google Translate but my normal speed is only 300 words an hour.
3. I cans gie you an extreme example to illustrate MT can save you time:
If you are asked to translate 200 country names, you may earn the income for translating about 400 words by one click. It will take you less tan 1 minute to finish it
Thanks for your reply.
Regarding 1: in my experience, the checking, researching (if necessary), rearranging and fixing of copied phrases and sentences takes more time than using my own brain and fingers for the correct translation. I also reject looking at machine-assembled language; it's not conducive to my brain and the language I use.
Regarding 2: that's what TMs are for. You can trust your own TMs and use them while translating. But you cannot use an MT INSTEAD of a human translation.
Regarding 3: this is indeed something a machine could "supply" as long as it uses the correct terms but that's not guaranteed either and the machine can mistake similar written countries and use the wrong country - so you need to at least check it all. But this is not what people usually mean by post-editing MT.
[Edited at 2015-08-28 16:22 GMT]
[Edited at 2015-08-29 14:48 GMT]
| | |
|
|
|
Whitney Maslak
संयुक्त राज्य अमरीका
Local time: 03:02
जर्मन से अंग्रेजी
| Definitely not worth it to me | Aug 28, 2015 |
I agree with some of the other translators here--it seems to be much more work than it's worth. I'm not sure if MT is equally as confusing with every language, but from German to English the end result is incredibly confusing because of the word order used in German.
I enjoy editing something that a human has translated and I wouldn't mind doing more of that, but the few editing jobs I've gotten have been very frustrating. They were very low-quality translations and I ended up havi... See more I agree with some of the other translators here--it seems to be much more work than it's worth. I'm not sure if MT is equally as confusing with every language, but from German to English the end result is incredibly confusing because of the word order used in German.
I enjoy editing something that a human has translated and I wouldn't mind doing more of that, but the few editing jobs I've gotten have been very frustrating. They were very low-quality translations and I ended up having to change so much that it would have been less work to just translate them myself. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Preston Decker
संयुक्त राज्य अमरीका
Local time: 05:02
चीनी से अंग्रेजी
| Interesting difference | Aug 28, 2015 |
Whitney Maslak wrote:
I enjoy editing something that a human has translated and I wouldn't mind doing more of that, but the few editing jobs I've gotten have been very frustrating. They were very low-quality translations and I ended up having to change so much that it would have been less work to just translate them myself.
Over the past 2-3 years I've done 50-100 proofreading/editing projects, only 1 or 2 of which have been done by a target native, competent translator. Editing for non-native, often less than competent translators involves making massive changes to the text, and is a headache. So I don't enjoy editing AT ALL, don't accept these jobs often, and charge higher rates for my editing services. I don't think my enjoyment level would change much, if at all, between PEMT and this sort of editing, so I might be willing to consider giving PEMT a try if the money was there.
My outlook might be very different if the economics of CN>EN translations were different and I were editing for native-level translators, but given the exchange rates involved, hiring native/competent translators for both the translation and editing phases seems to be rather rare in my language pair.
[Edited at 2015-08-28 20:48 GMT]
[Edited at 2015-08-28 20:48 GMT]
[Edited at 2015-08-28 20:54 GMT]
| | | | Marius Reika
Local time: 11:02
सदस्य (2006)
अंग्रेजी से लिथुआनी
| Tractors stayed, so | Aug 29, 2015 |
machine translations most probably are also going to stay. The fact that today MT software produces bullshit does not mean it is gonna stay like this. It is no secret there are attempts to create AI and I have no doubt one day those scientists will succeed, for the better or worse.
The question is not if MT software gonna replace human translators but when is it going to happen. The only consolation is that judging by the rubbish MT soft produces it will not happen soo... See more machine translations most probably are also going to stay. The fact that today MT software produces bullshit does not mean it is gonna stay like this. It is no secret there are attempts to create AI and I have no doubt one day those scientists will succeed, for the better or worse.
The question is not if MT software gonna replace human translators but when is it going to happen. The only consolation is that judging by the rubbish MT soft produces it will not happen soon.
[Edited at 2015-08-29 03:32 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | विषय में पृष्ठों की संख्या: < [1 2 3] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Offering post-editing services: yes or no? | Trados Studio 2022 Freelance |
|---|
The leading translation software used by over 270,000 translators.
Designed with your feedback in mind, Trados Studio 2022 delivers an unrivalled, powerful desktop
and cloud solution, empowering you to work in the most efficient and cost-effective way.
More info » |
| | Anycount & Translation Office 3000 |
|---|
Translation Office 3000
Translation Office 3000 is an advanced accounting tool for freelance translators and small agencies. TO3000 easily and seamlessly integrates with the business life of professional freelance translators.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
Translation news
