| विषय में पृष्ठों की संख्या: [1 2] > | Why risk non-payment? विषय पोस्ट करनेवाला व्यक्ति: Henry Hinds
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Henry Hinds 
संयुक्त राज्य अमरीका
Local time: 20:31
अंग्रेजी से स्पेनी
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की याद में
These days a multitude of products and services are sold on the Internet. One thing comes clear: all this commerce requires pre-payment, generally in the form of a credit or debit card number from which payment can be assured. Then why are we as translators at the mercy of robbers, scammers and unreliable "agencies"? Why do we not set up to receive credit or debit cards and thus avoid the risk of the non-payment situations that seem to plague so many?
I myself am not set up to recei... See more These days a multitude of products and services are sold on the Internet. One thing comes clear: all this commerce requires pre-payment, generally in the form of a credit or debit card number from which payment can be assured. Then why are we as translators at the mercy of robbers, scammers and unreliable "agencies"? Why do we not set up to receive credit or debit cards and thus avoid the risk of the non-payment situations that seem to plague so many?
I myself am not set up to receive credit or debit cards because I only work for clients who are already well known to me, widely recognized or come well recommended by reliable sources. Furthermore, many are local. Thus I seldom if ever have non-payment problems. But I know most of you are not in my situation. You have to deal with doubtful clients in multiple countries, making collection of bad debts all but impossible.
Well, why not? Should translators be the only ones on the Net trusting anyone who comes along and providing their services without first securing payment? I do not know what the cost factors are in setting up to receive credit or debit cards, but since so many are doing it, surely they are not so high.
Your opinions are invited. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sheila Wilson
स्पेन
Local time: 03:31
सदस्य (2007)
अंग्रेजी
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| Is prepayment so common for B2B transactions? | Nov 12, 2014 |
Henry Hinds wrote:
I myself am not set up to receive credit or debit cards because I only work for clients who are already well known to me, widely recognized or come well recommended by reliable sources. Furthermore, many are local. Thus I seldom if ever have non-payment problems. But I know most of you are not in my situation. You have to deal with doubtful clients in multiple countries, making collection of bad debts all but impossible.
I'm not at all sure that it is so common. B2C, yes. But we're "B"s (well, maybe "b"s as we're so small ).
I've written invoices to no fewer than 20 countries this year, and they aren't all in Europe, so I reckon I qualify under the "multiple countries" heading. Yet I've been paid by every one, within 30 days. I think the problem lies much more in those "doubtful clients" than in anything else. Not that there's anything wrong with advance payments per se, but I personally wouldn't see it as very useful. Firstly, I'd rather avoid the doubtful ones altogether, or at least do only small first jobs for them. Secondly, the doubtful ones can be a proverbial pain even if you've already got their money - wanting extra work springs to mind as a drawback. Thirdly, as someone who specialises in proofreading as well as translating, I couldn't possibly ask for full payment in advance - I don't know exactly how long the job will take until I've done it and I really wouldn't want to get into top-ups or refunds.
But I do agree that it's sad the way so many translators are being led a merry dance nowadays and have to beg for their money after giving three months of free credit. All I can say is that if you enter a relationship as the inferior party then that's the way you'll be treated. If you demand fairness from the start, and refuse to deal with those clients that are reluctant to give it, these problems rarely arise. Unfortunately, getting stung once in a while is part of business.
| | | | Salam Alrawi
संयुक्त राज्य अमरीका
Local time: 21:31
अंग्रेजी से अरबी
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| Good suggestion, however.... | Nov 12, 2014 |
Henry Hinds wrote:
These days a multitude of products and services are sold on the Internet. One thing comes clear: all this commerce requires pre-payment, generally in the form of a credit or debit card number from which payment can be assured. Then why are we as translators at the mercy of robbers, scammers and unreliable "agencies"? Why do we not set up to receive credit or debit cards and thus avoid the risk of the non-payment situations that seem to plague so many?
I myself am not set up to receive credit or debit cards because I only work for clients who are already well known to me, widely recognized or come well recommended by reliable sources. Furthermore, many are local. Thus I seldom if ever have non-payment problems. But I know most of you are not in my situation. You have to deal with doubtful clients in multiple countries, making collection of bad debts all but impossible.
Well, why not? Should translators be the only ones on the Net trusting anyone who comes along and providing their services without first securing payment? I do not know what the cost factors are in setting up to receive credit or debit cards, but since so many are doing it, surely they are not so high.
Your opinions are invited.
What if the translation was really bad for sure? How can the client be guaranteed his money back if he refuses the translation?
But, and a very important point, also it is sad enough to say it, proz.com is way behind on many of the development that happened in the last few years.
See, proz.com is number one translation site, and it is the leader website and stand out very well between any other competitors, But it still is missing out a lot. And I believe it is to avoid the headache and extra spending which in a way you might not blame the staff for that, but I do.
For example, proz.com can start milestone, which is now very popular on many places. But then if there is any dispute then proz.com should get involved. And I believe that's why they don't want to, to avoid the headache that comes with it. But on the other hand, proz.com might lose full member subscriptions since many translators stop their subscription once they get some regular clients on proz.com. As I myself didn't become full member until a week ago. Because of that, proz.com has to be very careful on what they get involved in and spend money on.
Let's say proz.com start the milestones, and an agency refuses to release the payment to the translator claiming that the translation is bad. On the other hand, the translator is claiming the translation is good and well done. At this point one or both file a dispute and then proz.com need to have someone to look at it. Of course that means proz.com needs to pay someone to check the translation and solve the dispute. Unless they find another way.
There are so many other things that proz.com can actually do and take advantage of and may be make more profit off of it, but for some reasons they aren't doing it. May be because they are still in good shape comparing to the competitors. But, a day will come where proz.com will stand on the edge and will need saving, specially with all these new websites that are launched every day.
[Edited at 2014-11-12 23:03 GMT]
| | | | Henry Hinds
संयुक्त राज्य अमरीका
Local time: 20:31
अंग्रेजी से स्पेनी
+ ...
विषय आरंभकर्ता की याद में
Well, yes, I do consider it rude if you say: you are one of them. you are getting the services you need and the popularity, if you didn't already (as now you already have the clients) and you don't have to pay for subscription anymore and I do take it personally. I do not and have never received any services from Proz and I had the clients long before Proz ever existed. I have never paid any membership fee and never will.
I think you should limit your comments to the topic at hand.
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Salam Alrawi
संयुक्त राज्य अमरीका
Local time: 21:31
अंग्रेजी से अरबी
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| I apologize Henry | Nov 12, 2014 |
Henry Hinds wrote:
Well, yes, I do consider it rude if you say: you are one of them. you are getting the services you need and the popularity, if you didn't already (as now you already have the clients) and you don't have to pay for subscription anymore and I do take it personally. I do not and have never received any services from Proz and I had the clients long before Proz ever existed. I have never paid any membership fee and never will.
I think you should limit your comments to the topic at hand.
I apologize, and shall edit my post. I am sorry, I was just being little bit open.
| | | | Henry Hinds
संयुक्त राज्य अमरीका
Local time: 20:31
अंग्रेजी से स्पेनी
+ ...
विषय आरंभकर्ता की याद में
I do not understand B2B or B2C or B as you use them. But we do not want to enter any relationship as the "inferior party". We are not beggars. You have obviously had very good luck with your clients, but I'm not so sure that's everyone's experience. I have good luck with mine also, but then again, most of them are close enough so that if they don't pay me, I can go over and strangle them!
I must admit that for me, to operate like you do would be scary, so clearly you must really kno... See more I do not understand B2B or B2C or B as you use them. But we do not want to enter any relationship as the "inferior party". We are not beggars. You have obviously had very good luck with your clients, but I'm not so sure that's everyone's experience. I have good luck with mine also, but then again, most of them are close enough so that if they don't pay me, I can go over and strangle them!
I must admit that for me, to operate like you do would be scary, so clearly you must really know what you're doing. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Salam Alrawi
संयुक्त राज्य अमरीका
Local time: 21:31
अंग्रेजी से अरबी
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| Just would like to mention this | Nov 12, 2014 |
Reading the forums, watching or listening to other people's trouble and how they deal with it. learning about new things and some other activities on proz.com are actually "services". however, proz.com provide them for free.
| | | | Henry Hinds
संयुक्त राज्य अमरीका
Local time: 20:31
अंग्रेजी से स्पेनी
+ ...
विषय आरंभकर्ता की याद में
Apology accepted, no problem. I've heard people asking why Proz does not get involved as a "dispute resolution service" or similar. I cannot speak for Proz, but I would think it would be a very difficult area that they would rather avoid. Moreover, enforcement would be virtually impossible.
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Salam Alrawi
संयुक्त राज्य अमरीका
Local time: 21:31
अंग्रेजी से अरबी
+ ...
| they work very well on other places | Nov 12, 2014 |
Henry Hinds wrote:
Apology accepted, no problem. I've heard people asking why Proz does not get involved as a "dispute resolution service" or similar. I cannot speak for Proz, but I would think it would be a very difficult area that they would rather avoid. Moreover, enforcement would be virtually impossible.
Many of the website development services do it. I can name at least 2 popular ones. And despite all the different probably 200 services or more, they still work it out.
They have some terms and many freelancers on those websites are actually taking advantage of the milestone to guarantee their payments. Most of them they don't even start working on projects until the milestones are set and there is an advance payments.
It is very effective, however it takes some resources, and those cost money.
| | | | MariusV
लिथुएनिया
Local time: 05:31
अंग्रेजी से लिथुआनी
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Sheila Wilson wrote:
Not that there's anything wrong with advance payments per se, but I personally wouldn't see it as very useful. Firstly, I'd rather avoid the doubtful ones altogether, or at least do only small first jobs for them. Secondly, the doubtful ones can be a proverbial pain even if you've already got their money - wanting extra work springs to mind as a drawback. Thirdly, as someone who specialises in proofreading as well as translating, I couldn't possibly ask for full payment in advance - I don't know exactly how long the job will take until I've done it and I really wouldn't want to get into top-ups or refunds.
Dear Sheila,
I fully agree with you that we can avoid the "doubtful ones" (sometimes one email letter is enough to "feel" their reliability even judging from their "style of communication" with no further searches and check needed). But sometimes scams are really smart (and please, agree, that their number increased dramatically during the last couple of years). Moreover, it is impossible to check or find all possible information (I think many of us suffered at least several times from them). And asking some advance payment might save one from any further problems - no scam will ever agree on any advanced payment (why he/she should if he/she never intends to pay at all?). With those "painful" clients, who demand to do more than agreed, there is also a solution - to define what you undertake to do and tell them in plain words that those extra things they ask you do to, is not in the scope of the agreed work, and they need to pay extra. Of course, they won't climb down one's neck if they are not told so in plain words. And there is one more important aspect, at least in my opinion - with big projects. E.g. there are big projects where it takes several weeks to do (esp. technical translations). And then, even if the client is 200% reliable, but if you spend a month doing some 60 000 words project, with the payment term 30 days after invoice, it means you will only get paid after two months at the best (I am not even speaking about the worst - when someone cheats you, or you have to waste time and energy trying to recover the money you earned). And one needs to live during those two months. OK, if one has some savings, but there might be various different situations where you cannot tell the utilities company/bank mortgage company "I will pay you later because I do not have money no - my client has not yet paid to me for my translation project"...In simple words, why should we put ourselves at risk for money-flow problems? And finally, WHY IN TRANSLATION BUSINESS/INDUSTRY ONLY things shall be "otherwise" / different from other businesses/industries? I would really appreciate even such a simple thing - I go to a supermarket, load a full trolley with everything, and at the cash-desk I tell "It is my policy to settle all and any payments in 45 days" "Why don't you trust me? I am a decent person. You can even search the Internet and check my credit history. And I will come to buy more. Many times. I want to be your permanent client. I can even issue and sign a promissory note for you" I hardly believe anyone at the cash-desk would consider it anything more than a joke (or that there is something wrong with the "common sense" of that person.
| | | | | are there more suspect agencies or translators? | Nov 13, 2014 |
My guess would be that more people representing themselves as able translators are not compared to the number of agencies or clients which don't pay.
Pre-payment also means having to be able/willing to offer refunds.
Why do you pay before getting your food at McDonald's but after at a diner or restaurant?
Credit lines and invoicing periods/delays exist in all industries. Most industries order on credit and pay later or in installments so trust is simply and... See more My guess would be that more people representing themselves as able translators are not compared to the number of agencies or clients which don't pay.
Pre-payment also means having to be able/willing to offer refunds.
Why do you pay before getting your food at McDonald's but after at a diner or restaurant?
Credit lines and invoicing periods/delays exist in all industries. Most industries order on credit and pay later or in installments so trust is simply and inherent and essential part of doing business no matter what service you provide.
A cafe ordering napkins from a new supplier for the first time is going through the same thing. And the napkin supplier taking an order from a new cafe is also. Both are trusting in the other to fulfill the agreement to perform the exchange in accordance with the stipulations.
Some of it is also the inertia of tradition. you pay after you get your food at a restaurant, after your closed are washed at the laundry, etc.
Clients and translators are both entering an environment of extending trust and I think both sides probably have stories about bad experiences.
Eventually, it's up to the individual to figure out how to protect them-self by making good choices in advance and documenting the procedure at all steps. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
संयुक्त राज्य अमरीका
Local time: 22:31
अंग्रेजी से जर्मन
+ ...
| Best Practices | Nov 13, 2014 |
http://wiki.proz.com/wiki/index.php/Determining_your_rates_and_fees_as_a_translator#Payment_terms
Payment terms usually depend on the individual client and what the client and translator have agreed on during negotiations prior to accepting the translation assignment. They should be clearly stated in the purchase order, contrac... See more http://wiki.proz.com/wiki/index.php/Determining_your_rates_and_fees_as_a_translator#Payment_terms
Payment terms usually depend on the individual client and what the client and translator have agreed on during negotiations prior to accepting the translation assignment. They should be clearly stated in the purchase order, contract and in the translator's invoice to the client. 30 days is usually the standard, although agencies in some countries stipulate 45, 60 and even 90 days. ....
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I don't work and then wait 45 days to get paid. At the latest, once the translation/language service has been delivered, the charge is due. As long as it's not paid for, the client shouldn't really use my work. Often, up-front payment/payment in advance, down-payment or immediate payment on delivery is highly desirable and makes sense and I ask for it. For good agencies I have worked with, I might accept later payment, but certainly not 45 or 60 days. Hardly 30 days either.
Thus, I support the following:
http://wiki.proz.com/wiki/index.php/Determining_your_rates_and_fees_as_a_translator#Payment_terms
But these agency standards are widely discussed and disputed among professionals. Some of them point out that a translator can provide better results when concentrating on his/her skills best, not trying to develop another business - a translator is not a bank and should therefore not be treated as a money lender. Or as a professional offering freebies. Upon negotiations with direct clients it's not uncommon to negotiate up-front payment or payment in advance - this can be a full payment in total or milestones payment when dealing with a larger text. Of course, in order to process a translation order with up-front payment accordingly, the translation client should check the business practices of the translator. Checking feedback like the LWA entries on ProZ or recommendations on other networking platforms can help, although - just like translators back-checking the business practices of their clients - the client should while checking not forget to take a look at the feedback granters. Reliable companies among such feedback entries might help in order to get some reassurance about the professionalism and reliability of the language service provider.
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As far as credit or debit card payments are concerned, I do accept PayPal and Skrill - the client can use credit or debit cards even if she/he has not been a PayPal or Skrill member. There are clear instructions on how to do this. I also often ask the client to share money transfer fees or to pay them outright (especially if it is a large translation), but for large projects, I prefer bank transfers anyway.
Most importantly, the terms for delivery and payment must be established in writing before I start the project and before the payment is made - either in the client's PO or in my order form (order contract). The order contract serves as security for the client and myself.
For all my work, I quote up front. Assessing the costs is sometimes difficult but not impossible, AFAIC.
It prevents future headaches. Clear and fair terms attract professional clients. Best practices all around.
[Edited at 2014-11-13 18:27 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Pre-payment over the internet is indeed common, although I tend to avoid it when they have to deliver big goods like washing machines. You try and get your money back if there is something wrong with it. You also don't know if you're going to get it at all. What if it doesn't arrive?
I see my business (and it is one) like I see other businesses: if I hire an electrician, I don't pay them up front. In fact I would be suspicious if they asked me for up front, because 100% is unusual (25% top... See more Pre-payment over the internet is indeed common, although I tend to avoid it when they have to deliver big goods like washing machines. You try and get your money back if there is something wrong with it. You also don't know if you're going to get it at all. What if it doesn't arrive?
I see my business (and it is one) like I see other businesses: if I hire an electrician, I don't pay them up front. In fact I would be suspicious if they asked me for up front, because 100% is unusual (25% tops if it's a big job). And yes, the electrician is a local firm and the agency might not be, but still, for new clients my translation remains an unknown product just as the work of my electrician is of unknown quality to me. What if it's sh*te? It's logical that they would not like to pay me everything.
Indeed, I even pay my phone bill after the month has passed, not before the month is coming. I get wages after I have worked a month and not before I start work. So do I get my paid leave after I have worked one whole year (or at least in Belgium I do), so why would I want people to pay for something they will potentially not receive?
30 days is a given, though. ▲ Collapse
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MariusV wrote:
I would really appreciate even such a simple thing - I go to a supermarket, load a full trolley with everything, and at the cash-desk I tell "It is my policy to settle all and any payments in 45 days" "Why don't you trust me? I am a decent person. You can even search the Internet and check my credit history. And I will come to buy more. Many times. I want to be your permanent client. I can even issue and sign a promissory note for you" I hardly believe anyone at the cash-desk would consider it anything more than a joke (or that there is something wrong with the "common sense" of that person.)
Actually, you can do exactly that in French supermarkets (maybe elsewhere too).
You just have to open a commercial account with them.
I see people at the checkout all of the time that just show a card and they receive a printed bill and pay no money. I always seem to be stuck behind them as the bill is much more detailed than the normal till receipt and has to be printed twice and then signed on each page - it takes for ever and there is no way to detect who is going to do this until their shopping has already been scanned.
Judging by the purchases, most of them seem to be restaurant owners but they might be willing to offer the same service to translators if you ask them
| | | | nrichy (X)
फ्रांस
Local time: 04:31
फ्रांसीसी से डच
+ ...
| Thre is a simple, legal reason for this | Nov 13, 2014 |
Normally services can only be invoiced (and therefore paid for) after they have been executed.
The same goes for doctors, lawyers, bailiffs, hairdressers, counsellers and expert services of all kind.
The only exception I know of is laundry services nowadays, for reasons that can easily be understood, but translators are not commercial and powerful enough to force their clients.
[Edited at 2014-11-13 14:31 GMT]
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