| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Article "8 spelling mistakes even smart people make" Thread poster: Melanie Meyer
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Ty Kendall 
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:09
Hebrew to English
| Seriously Neil? | Oct 25, 2011 |
I think you are being a bit purposefully contrary here Neil.
You are talking about SEN. I'm not. They are totally different issues.
My point was that the very basics of grammar aren't being taught. Have you seen an AQA GCSE English Language syllabus? It's practically Literature in disguise. It barely mentions grammar. Only that the pupil is expected to know it.
You're also forgetting/not knowing that most secondary schools are streamed. So the SEN issue is ... See more I think you are being a bit purposefully contrary here Neil.
You are talking about SEN. I'm not. They are totally different issues.
My point was that the very basics of grammar aren't being taught. Have you seen an AQA GCSE English Language syllabus? It's practically Literature in disguise. It barely mentions grammar. Only that the pupil is expected to know it.
You're also forgetting/not knowing that most secondary schools are streamed. So the SEN issue is somewhat moot in this context. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Lots of reasons, but there you go. | Oct 25, 2011 |
Jack Doughty wrote:
My time in the UK school system was 1936-1947. At that time grammar was very thoroughly taught in my (well-named) grammar school, and I have always been very thankful for that when studying other languages. But it all went to pot in the sixties (not 60's!).
I was lucky. I learnt a lot of grammar from my Latin teacher. My English teachers - two very mature ladies by then in the sixties - still used a lot of wit and encouragement and red ink in almost equal proportions on enforcing the rules. They believed we would not be able to understand each other unless we knew what we were writing and why...
There was the same problem in Denmark a generation later. One suspected that even some of the teachers had trouble with spelling and grammar. (Danish spelling is not much easier than English, and the comma rules are a challenge to everyone.) Our son was suddenly much happier when we moved him to a school that did not simply put him down as a stickler when he wrote correctly or tried to sort out the comma rules!
@ Neil Coffey
Think for a minute about those children whose learning ability is such that, given a few examples, they are incapable of intuitively working out what the pattern is in the use of "your" vs "you're".... do you seriously think that it is the most pressing issue that teachers need to focus on in teaching them? Seriously? Don't you think that the children unable to work this out will have a whole mountain of other more pressing learning issues to be addressed?
Maybe. Maybe not.
I once saw a TV series about a teacher taking a class of children who could not read and by then were determined not to bother - it was too humiliating.
He persuaded them that they were missing out on a lot of fun, and read some books with them that they enjoyed. It was an uphill battle, with hostile parents saying it was impossible and a waste of time, but at the end of the series, the children found they had solved an enormous number of problems that on the surface were only remotely connected with reading. Some of the parents tearfully wished they had had the same chance at school, and others said no one had ever really been good at reading in the family.
The children could hold their own and did not need to spend all their energy bluffing their way through situations where everyone else knew the answer.
It is NOT sheer coincidence that people who are desperate for jobs are often those who really struggle with commas, apostrophes and the eight mistakes that started this discussion.
Others can make an impression with their first written application. Those are the ones who get a chance to walk confidently in and shake hands with the boss at the job interview, and start work on Monday...
Sorry, didn't mean to write a tirade...
And I haven't even started on my dyslexic relative (and THAT is a nightmare in our family!) who got fed up with Dragon and learned to do without it!
If I mix up to and too myself, I'll insist from now to Doomsday it was a typo and unintentional. 
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:09
Hebrew to English
Michael Grant wrote: Mmmmm seriously? Think for a minute about those children whose learning ability is such that, given a few examples, they are incapable of intuitively working out what the pattern is in the use of "your" vs "you're". (I don't mean accidentally using one rather than the other on Facebook-- I mean actually being unable to work out what the pattern is.) Now, for those children unable to work this out for themselves, do you seriously think that it is the most pressing issue that teachers need to focus on in teaching them? Seriously? Don't you think that the children unable to work this out will have a whole mountain of other more pressing learning issues to be addressed?
[Edited at 2011-10-25 02:17 GMT] Sure, kids learn at different paces, some "get it" right away, and some require more instruction. That's why those who struggle with learning belong in classes designed for their learning speed/ability. However, in an English or grammar class with kids who learn at a more or less "normal" pace, these kinds of things should be learned, no? I was under the impression that we were talking in general terms, assuming kids with average learning abilities...The topic of kids with "more pressing learning issues" involves an entirely different set of considerations. Apples and oranges...
I agree with you completely Michael. The teaching of children with more pressing learning issues (what is called SEN here - Special Educational Needs) is totally separate from the teaching of the "average-capability" child. (It's difficult to find a term for "normal/average" that won't be misconstrued or considered politically incorrect or loaded).
The truth is that nobody is suggesting banging on about punctuation to kids with dyslexia or other conditions, we are talking about including basic grammar in the curriculum for the average pupil. When I was at university, the lack of grammatical knowledge of the British students was a source of humour for the foreign students, who considered it somewhat bizarre that we aren't even taught the linguistics of our own language.
Also, within mainstream schools, streaming practically eliminates the chance of a SEN pupil being in a classroom beyond their abilities. (And that was 15 years ago when I was at secondary school - SEN recognition and streaming has improved much since then even).
The tragedy is, that many people who I see using "there/their/they're" incorrectly are perfectly capable of learning the difference, i.e. there's nothing cognitively preventing them from understanding it. They were just never taught or didn't listen. (Usually the former).
I think it was a bit disingenuous to raise the issue here in this context.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:09
Hebrew to English
| Similar experience | Oct 25, 2011 |
Christine Andersen wrote: Jack Doughty wrote:
My time in the UK school system was 1936-1947. At that time grammar was very thoroughly taught in my (well-named) grammar school, and I have always been very thankful for that when studying other languages. But it all went to pot in the sixties (not 60's!). I was lucky. I learnt a lot of grammar from my Latin teacher. My English teachers - two very mature ladies by then in the sixties - still used a lot of wit and encouragement and red ink in almost equal proportions on enforcing the rules. They believed we would not be able to understand each other unless we knew what we were writing and why... There was the same problem in Denmark a generation later. One suspected that even some of the teachers had trouble with spelling and grammar. (Danish spelling is not much easier than English, and the comma rules are a challenge to everyone.) Our son was suddenly much happier when we moved him to a school that did not simply put him down as a stickler when he wrote correctly or tried to sort out the comma rules! @ Neil Coffey
Think for a minute about those children whose learning ability is such that, given a few examples, they are incapable of intuitively working out what the pattern is in the use of "your" vs "you're".... do you seriously think that it is the most pressing issue that teachers need to focus on in teaching them? Seriously? Don't you think that the children unable to work this out will have a whole mountain of other more pressing learning issues to be addressed?
Maybe. Maybe not. I once saw a TV series about a teacher taking a class of children who could not read and by then were determined not to bother - it was too humiliating. He persuaded them that they were missing out on a lot of fun, and read some books with them that they enjoyed. It was an uphill battle, with hostile parents saying it was impossible and a waste of time, but at the end of the series, the children found they had solved an enormous number of problems that on the surface were only remotely connected with reading. Some of the parents tearfully wished they had had the same chance at school, and others said no one had ever really been good at reading in the family. The children could hold their own and did not need to spend all their energy bluffing their way through situations where everyone else knew the answer. It is NOT sheer coincidence that people who are desperate for jobs are often those who really struggle with commas, apostrophes and the eight mistakes that started this discussion. Others can make an impression with their first written application. Those are the ones who get a chance to walk confidently in and shake hands with the boss at the job interview, and start work on Monday... Sorry, didn't mean to write a tirade... And I haven't even started on my dyslexic relative (and THAT is a nightmare in our family!) who got fed up with Dragon and learned to do without it! If I mix up to and too myself, I'll insist from now to Doomsday it was a typo and unintentional.
I agree Christine, I think grammar and punctuation are just as important for everyone (and more important for those who may struggle with it, for the reasons you mention) I know dyslexic people who spell and write better than people without it!
So not every language pathology can be used as a get-out clause for not teaching certain things.
Not to mention the many "Skills for Life" departments up and down the country who exist for the very purpose of offering extra English and Maths skills to SEN children/young adults.
Should these not exist? Of course they should.
Also - I was lucky too, had some great German teachers who introduced me to grammar.
[Edited at 2011-10-25 09:54 GMT]
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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:09
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| Can Knut hold back the tide? | Oct 25, 2011 |
Well - summing up this whole thread it seems:
A. After 100 years of education for all, we're faced with a generalised return to illiteracy;
B. This return to illiteracy should not be confused with the natural evolution of language;
C. There's nothing we can do to stop this rising tide of illiteracy, but we can defend literacy in our own work.
| | | | Elena Volkova
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:09
English to Russian
+ ...
| Do not underestimate non-natives | Oct 26, 2011 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
I'll keep is short, because it may be considered "off-topic", but the issue of translators translating into non-native languages is scandalous, and especially rife on here. In my language pair, there are many Israelis who would swear on their mothers' lives that they are "native" in English, when in truth, it's a second language for them and no matter how proficient they are, they aren't native speakers.
I also despair when I see something like "10 language pairs" on a profile.
Edited for a typo - that's what you get for trying to type and watch TV at the same time.
[Edited at 2011-10-12 09:55 GMT]
Further on this off-topic, I find that many non-natives are actually better at English grammar than natives. It may be down to the way they were taught the language, myself included - at my school, teachers concentrated on grammar and spelling and went very easy on conversation. So by the time I graduated I could challenge any native speaker for the correct use of Past Perfect Subjunctive but had trouble expressing myself in a cafeteria.
As a result, I too am a total Nazi when it comes to poor spelling and grammar, in any language. Being a non-native speaker is not an explanation for this kind of mistakes, in my humble yet adamant opinion.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:09
Hebrew to English
| Clarification | Oct 26, 2011 |
Elena Volkova wrote: Ty Kendall wrote:
I'll keep is short, because it may be considered "off-topic", but the issue of translators translating into non-native languages is scandalous, and especially rife on here. In my language pair, there are many Israelis who would swear on their mothers' lives that they are "native" in English, when in truth, it's a second language for them and no matter how proficient they are, they aren't native speakers.
I also despair when I see something like "10 language pairs" on a profile.
Edited for a typo - that's what you get for trying to type and watch TV at the same time.
[Edited at 2011-10-12 09:55 GMT] Further on this off-topic, I find that many non-natives are actually better at English grammar than natives. It may be down to the way they were taught the language, myself included - at my school, teachers concentrated on grammar and spelling and went very easy on conversation. So by the time I graduated I could challenge any native speaker for the correct use of Past Perfect Subjunctive but had trouble expressing myself in a cafeteria. As a result, I too am a total Nazi when it comes to poor spelling and grammar, in any language. Being a non-native speaker is not an explanation for this kind of mistakes, in my humble yet adamant opinion.
I actually agree with you, most non-natives do have better spelling and grammar than most native English speaking people. The quote above was from earlier in the thread, I think I was replying to something Neil was saying...
...My gripe there was that I don't think anyone should be translating into a non-native language, no matter how proficient - and usually because it has more to do with language "instinct" (the kind you have from being a native speaker of a language) than pure spelling and grammar (which non-natives have mastered easily). But this is a policy which everyone has to decide for themselves.
...but in general (not talking about using the language for translation) then yes I agree with you that non-natives have the edge sometimes with spelling & grammar.
| | | | Elena Volkova
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:09
English to Russian
+ ...
Ty Kendall wrote:
...My gripe there was that I don't think anyone should be translating into a non-native language, no matter how proficient - and usually because it has more to do with language "instinct" (the kind you have from being a native speaker of a language) than pure spelling and grammar (which non-natives have mastered easily). But this is a policy which everyone has to decide for themselves.
...but in general (not talking about using the language for translation) then yes I agree with you that non-natives have the edge sometimes with spelling & grammar.
And I fully agree with you that one should only translate into your native language.
For that reason, even though I provide translation from Russian into English, they will always be proofread by a native speaker who is also fluent in Russian, and I make my clients aware of that so they basically get translation+proofreading at no extra cost for themselves.
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Maiyim Baron
United States
Local time: 10:09
Japanese to English
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| proofreading is part of the deal | Oct 28, 2011 |
This is my first post here, and I don't know how to show the quotes. Please excuse me. I will learn for next time.
It must have been Ty way back in this thread who first wrote .
" I wouldn't dream of translating into languages other than my own without the help of a native speaker colleague, and expect my (professional)colleagues to follow suit."
This thread was so interesting I read through the whole thing to this last post, and I too agree with Elena's first st... See more This is my first post here, and I don't know how to show the quotes. Please excuse me. I will learn for next time.
It must have been Ty way back in this thread who first wrote .
" I wouldn't dream of translating into languages other than my own without the help of a native speaker colleague, and expect my (professional)colleagues to follow suit."
This thread was so interesting I read through the whole thing to this last post, and I too agree with Elena's first statement:
"And I fully agree with you that one should only translate into your native language.
For that reason, even though I provide translation from Russian into English, they will always be proofread by a native speaker who is also fluent in Russian, and I make my clients aware of that so they basically get translation+proofreading at no extra cost for themselves."
I never thought of it that way! What a bargain for the client! I must present OUR services that way. WE - my partner and I - work in Japanese>English and the other way too, and ALWAYS go over each other's work (uh-oh, is that apostrophe right? Now I will have to go back to that apostrophe usage link - thanks for that.)
My experience has taught me this is the only way to execute the quality of translation I chose to deliver.
I love the quality of the discussion here. Thanks, colleagues! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 16:09
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
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| Contradictory statement | Oct 28, 2011 |
Elena Volkova wrote:
So by the time I graduated I could challenge any native speaker for the correct use of Past Perfect Subjunctive but had trouble expressing myself in a cafeteria.
So you have learned just one grammatical unit (PPS), as expressing yourself in a cafeteria would necessarily involve a combination of at least ten linguistic units?
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:09
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Elena Volkova wrote:
.... had trouble expressing myself in a cafeteria.
Since a cafeteria is a self-service café, where you select everything yourself and just go to pay for it, you can usually get away with saying nothing.
Or did you mean a café ?
| | | | Elena Volkova
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:09
English to Russian
+ ...
Lingua 5B wrote: Elena Volkova wrote:
So by the time I graduated I could challenge any native speaker for the correct use of Past Perfect Subjunctive but had trouble expressing myself in a cafeteria.
So you have learned just one grammatical unit (PPS), as expressing yourself in a cafeteria would necessarily involve a combination of at least ten linguistic units?
Why would you come to a conclusion that I only learnt one grammatical unit? I only used one as an example in my post.
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Elena Volkova
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:09
English to Russian
+ ...
| Could have been either | Oct 28, 2011 |
Tom in London wrote: Elena Volkova wrote:
.... had trouble expressing myself in a cafeteria.
Since a cafeteria is a self-service café, where you select everything yourself and just go to pay for it, you can usually get away with saying nothing. Or did you mean a café ?
I don't remember, to be honest - it happened 10 years ago. I was stuck at discussing what drinks they had on offer. Incidentally, the person behind the counter was Indian so we had mutual trouble understanding each other.
| | | | Oliver Walter
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:09
German to English
+ ...
Ty Kendall wrote:
The lack of knowledge of how to use "your/you're" and "they're/there/their" has little to do with language change, they are still homophones as they have always been, but the lack of adequate language instruction in British schools (well-documented) has produced legions of people who talk about "your great" / "your the best".
their/there are homophones (they rhyme with "hair" and "air");
"they're" is pronounced differently (sounds like "they r"
your/you're are not homophones ("your" is pronounced like "yor"; "you're" is pronounced like "yoo r"
Oliver
| | | | Oliver Walter
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:09
German to English
+ ...
| Another one (and apostrophes) | Oct 28, 2011 |
A similar one that jumps out at me when I see it is the confusion between
everyday (adjective)
and
every day (adverbial phrase)
It is fairly common for "everyday" to be used in both cases.
Thinking about grammar is an everyday activity for translators; they do it every day.
And, on the subject of apostrophe misuse: there's a wine shop near where I live (north-west greater London) that calls itself "A1 Wine's".
Oliver
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