| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10] > | How bad is declining job after accepting it Thread poster: Annett Roessner
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| Is that an insinuation? | Dec 8, 2023 |
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
I can't claim to know much about Italian culture...
Would you please care to explain this statement?
Do moderators of this thread have nothing to say?
[Edited at 2023-12-08 11:43 GMT]
| | | | | Avoiding unnecessary criticism | Dec 8, 2023 |
Thomas T. Frost wrote: monica.m wrote:
Tell them you have a personal issue, you can't go on. I can't claim to know much about Italian culture, but if I were a PM, I would prefer the translator simply to be transparent and honest and not appreciate waffle, obfuscation and lies. I would tend to keep the former on board rather than the latter. I'd say this would be the usual approach in the Nordic countries, where "macho" claims of being able to do everything and making up barely credible excuses are generally disliked. A more down-to-earth approach works better in these countries.
0% relevance to Italian culture and, I not very respectfully submit, also complete bollocks?
People from England make barely credible excuses every day of the week and it works extremely well for them. A few of them run translation agencies. Many of them also remain in government, despite claiming omnipotence and being "generally disliked".
Anyway well done OP and I hope you keep insisting on making the PMs do their jobs properly. They have no right to demand high quality if that's their ludicrous approach to job allocation.
| | | | | No insinuation | Dec 8, 2023 |
Mario Cerutti wrote: Thomas T. Frost wrote:
I can't claim to know much about Italian culture... Would you please care to explain this statement? Do moderators of this thread have nothing to say?
I am not insinuating or judging anything. I am saying that I don't know if the way monica.m suggested works better in Italy than transparency. A couple of years ago, we had another Italian colleague opening a forum topic suggesting never to ask the client in case of doubt, so maybe transparency does not work so well in Italy. I am not the one who made these statements about not being transparent. I'm just observing.
May I remind you of forum rule 5:
'Speculating on others' opinions is not allowed.
Commenting on others' opinions without authorization ('Jenny seems to think...'), is not allowed.'
Please just consider what I said and don't try to interpret it or draw conclusions I did not state.
| | | | | Unfair and unfounded accusations | Dec 8, 2023 |
Claire Titchmarsh wrote: Avoiding unnecessary criticism Thomas T. Frost wrote: monica.m wrote:
Tell them you have a personal issue, you can't go on. I can't claim to know much about Italian culture, but if I were a PM, I would prefer the translator simply to be transparent and honest and not appreciate waffle, obfuscation and lies. I would tend to keep the former on board rather than the latter. I'd say this would be the usual approach in the Nordic countries, where "macho" claims of being able to do everything and making up barely credible excuses are generally disliked. A more down-to-earth approach works better in these countries. 0% relevance to Italian culture and, I not very respectfully submit, also complete bollocks? People from England make barely credible excuses every day of the week and it works extremely well for them. A few of them run translation agencies. Many of them also remain in government, despite claiming omnipotence and being "generally disliked". Anyway well done OP and I hope you keep insisting on making the PMs do their jobs properly. They have no right to demand high quality if that's their ludicrous approach to job allocation.
1. I did not state any criticism. That is your own interpretation.
2. Your post is not in line with forum rule 5 and general rule 2.
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| Yes there was insinuation | Dec 8, 2023 |
Perhaps unintentional on your part, Thomas, but it came across to me as cultural prejudice.
| | | | | Speculation not allowed | Dec 8, 2023 |
Claire Titchmarsh wrote:
Yes there was insinuation
Perhaps unintentional on your part, Thomas, but it came across to me as cultural prejudice.
May I remind you again that forum rule 5 does not allow speculation on what others said. Please just stick to what I wrote, not what you mistakenly think I meant.
I have already explained what I meant. I am not responsible for Italian members saying it's best not to be transparent. They are responsible for that, not I.
Edit: if it works better in e.g. Italy not to be so transparent about certain things than to be transparent, then it is useful information when dealing with Italian agencies. It would be absurd to suggest that there are no cultural differences between countries. Understanding each culture makes it possible to adapt to it. This has nothing to do with insinuations. People are individuals but still shaped by the cultures in which they grow up.
[Edited at 2023-12-08 12:59 GMT]
| | | | Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 16:26
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Thomas T. Frost wrote: Mario Cerutti wrote: Thomas T. Frost wrote:
I can't claim to know much about Italian culture... Would you please care to explain this statement? I am not insinuating or judging anything.
I think it was clear what you meant (-: namely that it is possible that Monica believes that lying to the client by saying that she "has a personal issue" might be related to the fact that she is Italian, and that such a response may be a typically Italian response. And I don't think you're far off the mark -- we all know that Italian culture is a face-saving culture, where brutal honesty is often considered rude instead of polite, and where it may be culturally more appropriate to deflect conflict than to defuse it.
Look, I'm sure you had your tongue in your cheek when you wrote that, but you did write it. It's a shame that your quip resulted in a debate that took up a full page of this discussion. We should all be more sensitive when writing about other people's cultures and countries.
May I remind you of forum rule 5:
'Speculating on others' opinions is not allowed.
Commenting on others' opinions without authorization ('Jenny seems to think...'), is not allowed.'
Sure, but neither Mario nor Claire did this. Mario asked you outright to clarify your meaning, and Claire simply responded to your reasoning (rather rudely, if you ask me, but that is her problem, not yours).
No-one here is speculating. You compared Nordic culture (I assume you meant "German" -- do the Portuguese consider Germany to be Nordic?) with Italian culture, and the reason why you compared it to Italian culture is because Monica is Italian. Apparently, both Mario and Claire found the comparison insulting. I'm not saying I agree with either of them. Am I speculating? (-:
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Samuel Murray wrote:
We should all be more sensitive when writing about other people's cultures and countries.
That's your opinion, but I did not say anything negative about Italian culture. I noted that there may be a difference from e.g. the Nordic countries in terms of how best to explain a case like this. Is transparency better than a white lie? I did not judge that. I only noted that the best choice may not be the same everywhere. And I said transparency would generally work better in the Nordic countries, which do not include Germany. How did Germany get into the picture anyway? I don't think the Portuguese have a different definition of the Nordic countries, and I'm not Portuguese, so how is Portugal relevant?
What I do know is that in modern times, some people, perhaps spurred by the media, are quick to be offended by everything, as if it were taboo to talk about cultural differences. But I too am a product of the place and time where I grew up in the Nordics in the 1970s, where it was normal to talk more freely without having to self-censor to avoid offending people. Many of the best comedies from that era would never have been allowed today. I could also say that Nordic people are generally more direct than in many other cultures. This again is a cultural trait. You can like it or dislike it, but that's how I am, and that's my culture, and there is no good reason why I should suppress my culture just to please others in this climate where it is fashionable to be offended by everything.
Again, I must ask people to refrain from interpreting what I said in ways they think they can read between the lines. They can't.
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 16:26
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Thomas T. Frost wrote: Samuel Murray wrote:
We should all be more sensitive when writing about other people's cultures and countries. That's your opinion, but I did not say anything negative about Italian culture.
That is how I understood your comment, too.
| | | | | It's all about nuances | Dec 9, 2023 |
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
I am not insinuating or judging anything.
The very brief comment made by an Italian colleague in this post which, in my view, cannot be necessarily interpreted as an intention to promote "opacity", but rather an attempt to sidestep a difficult discussion with the agency in question (by the way, do translation companies in general prioritize transparency towards translators?), and the other comment about an elusive Italian translator, for which we lack sufficient context or relevant information to form our own judgment, do not grant you the authority to publicly stereotype an entire culture even by using nuances.
While all of us are entitled to our own opinion on this or that culture based on direct experiences or simply hearsay, the manner in which it was expressed, yes, in my perspective appears as a suggestive besides unnecessary insinuation.
[Edited at 2023-12-09 04:41 GMT]
| | | | | We all have limitations | Dec 9, 2023 |
And some of us know them. 
Others post CL5 answers in languages they don't master, but that's neither here nor there.
... See more
| | | | | What a bummer | Dec 9, 2023 |
Lingua 5B wrote:
Some even make you first sign an NDA before they can show you any sample.
Yes, what a bummer when you sign all the necessary papers just to see what the text is about and find out that the text is out of your league...
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Mario Cerutti wrote:
the authority to publicly stereotype an entire culture even by using nuances.
While all of us are entitled to our own opinion on this or that culture based on direct experiences or simply hearsay, the manner in which it was expressed, yes, in my perspective appears as a suggestive besides unnecessary insinuation.
[Edited at 2023-12-09 04:41 GMT]
As a native English speaker, I see no insinuation. I think you’re reading something into this that wasn’t there, and Thomas has already explained at length what he meant.
| | | | | Trusting a LLM for that is very dangerous | Dec 9, 2023 |
kd42 wrote:
Every translator gets such a job sooner or later.
If you treat a neural network translation engine as a fast terminology server and use it wisely you will be OK with this or any other similar situation. Of course, there are many fields where neural MT will not help, but this is not the case< i suspect.
If you are not familiar with the field, it's impossible to use it "wisely": LLMs tend to start answering in a useful way, and then gradually arrive at nonsensical, wrong or dangerous answers. Just an example (from Chat GTP 3.5):
User. Please provide a synonym for "obsequious" that starts with C
ChatGPT: Certainly! A synonym for "obsequious" that starts with the letter C is "complaisant."
User: another one?
ChatGPT: Certainly! Another synonym for "obsequious" that starts with the letter C is "cringing."
User: another one?
ChatGPT: Certainly! Another synonym for "obsequious" that starts with the letter C is "crawling."
User: another one?
ChatGPT: Of course! Another synonym for "obsequious" that starts with the letter C is "unctuous."
User: but does "unctuous" start with the letter "c"?
ChatGPT: Apologies for the mistake earlier. You're right; "unctuous" doesn't start with the letter C.
Here's another synonym for "obsequious" that starts with the letter C: "fawning."
So you see: starts OK, then veers into incorrect answers, and persists in them.
Now imagine that you had asked it to serve you a glossary of terms about some specialized subject - if you don't know that field very well, how are you going to decide which answers are useful, and which are incorrect?
| | | | Baran Keki
Türkiye
Local time: 17:27
Member
English to Turkish
Christopher Schröder wrote:
As a native English speaker, I see no insinuation. I think you’re reading something into this that wasn’t there, and Thomas has already explained at length what he meant.
As a non-native English speaker, I don't see any insinuation either. But then my English isn't that good, and I may have missed something. I think, to be on the safe side, we should limit our discussions to AI, CAT tools, size of our monitors or whether or not we drink coffee in the morning (as off topic) to avoid hurting people's feelings. Talk about walking on eggshells, what?
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