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Spanish to English translations [PRO] Law/Patents - Law (general) / Power of attorney
Spanish term or phrase:actuando CONJUNTA o MANCOMÜNADAMENTE
"Para que actuando CONJUNTA o MANCOMÜNADAMENTE con otro apoderado con idénticas facultades, ejercite las facultades que se transcriben a continuación:"
I am a little fazed because they have previously used the expression "solidario y mancomunadamente" in another part of the power of attorney document.
Explanation: In a bank account context, an account is conjunta o mancomunicada (both terms being used, often as a stock phrase "conjunta o mancomunicada") if everyone has to sign off.
Thank you for taking the time to sort this out. You also make a good point about selected answers to Kudoz questions not always being *correct* answers. This is not exactly an uncommon occurrence.
This is an egregious example of the "we've had it before" fallacy. Everything in the question on "mancomunadamente" you cited at the start of this discussion, Phil, is wrong. Here, on the other hand, is a correct answer (thank goodness it was chosen, because the other answer is wrong): https://www.proz.com/kudoz/english_to_spanish/law_contracts/...
Sorry to harp on this, but in respect of obligations/liabilities, it is really disconcerting to find dictionaries rendering "mancomunado" as "joint" or vice versa. Consider (I quote from the Gámez/Cuñado blog):
"Si no se ha expresado o pactado la responsabilidad bajo la modalidad de solidaria, se presumirá siempre que, concurriendo varios obligados, éstos lo serán con carácter mancomunado, o sea, a partes iguales, sin tener que responder de las cuotas de los demás."
"Copromisors are liable “jointly” if all of them have promised the entire performance which is the subject of the contract. The effect of a joint obligation is that each joint promisor is liable for the whole performance jointly assumed" https://traduccionjuridica.es/diccionario-de-ingles-juridico...
If these statements are correct, as I'm sure they are, how on earth do people manage to translate "obligaciones mancomunadas" as "joint obligations"? I find it very disconcerting that Rebecca Jowers, whose infallibility generally approaches papal proportions, should do so. It makes me wonder whether I'm missing something.
Thanks! I should have noticed that :) You and Robert are both right; a "poder solidario" is a PoA in which each apoderado can act alone and a "poder mancomunado" is one in which both or all the apoderados have to act together. As to whether the "solidario" type should be called several or joint and several, I'll add my two eurocents' worth in the other question.
This is used in James's previous question ("otorgar poderes solidarios o mancomunados a favor de empleados de..."), where I actually referenced the same blog! It would be interesting to hear your opinion on the discussion Robert and I have been having on the issue of redundancy (or lack thereof). This is the link: https://goo.gl/s2LDDf
Just out of interest, in what context does the PoA use the expression "solidario y mancomunadamente" (which should presumably read "solidaria y mancomunadamente")?
When it comes to liabilities, as you said in your first post, conjuntamente and mancomunadamente have quite different meanings: the first means jointly and the second means severally.
I strongly recommend Ruth Gámez and Fernando Cuñado's extensive blog post on this (it's geared to Spain and to English-Spanish translation). Their bottom line:
Robert (Carter): You are quite right about mancomunado, and it is very important to take note of this. Its meaning, and its translation, are quite different according to whether it refers to the powers conferred in a PoA, as here, or to liabilities. Here, mancomunadamente means acting jointly with another apoderado and it is a synonym of conjuntamente. If a PoA specifies that an apoderado is to act mancomunadamente, it means that he/she cannot act alone. There's an interesting case here in which a PoA in which the apoderado was given power to act "mancomunadamente con el mismo poderdante" was deemed void and meaningless, since the poderdante, an individual in this case, could take any action he wished alone, so the PoA did not actually confer any power; if the apoderado can't do anything except jointly with the poderdante, he might as well have stayed at home. In order for the PoA to be meaningful, it would need to say solidariamente: https://www.notarisdecatalunya.org/ca/legislació/un-solo-apo...
Quite right, Alex, I forgot to change my "agree". It could be that by using conjunta o mancomunadamente" the ST is attempting to explain what "mancomunadamente" means.
Although I agree with everything you have said regarding the difference between jointly and severally, I think the issue is actually to do with the ST. <p><p> CONJUNTA O MANCOMUNADAMENTE seems to be the same thing, rather than a synonym of mancomunada o solidariamente.<p><p> https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obligación_conjunta<p>&l... Ok, it's about liabilities rather than rights, but the principle is identical. Other research sources seem to confirm this very thing, therefore the correct translation is simply one word: JOINTLY
If parties have joint liability, then they are each liable up to the full amount of the relevant obligation. ... The converse is several or proportionate liability, where the parties are liable for only their respective obligations. ... Under joint and several liability or all sums, a claimant may pursue an obligation against any one party as if they were jointly liable and it becomes the responsibility of the defendants to sort out their respective proportions of liability and payment.
By the way, my initial definition was taken from the Becerra Dictionary of Mexican Legal Terminology (2011, p. 796): mancomunado - (adj.) several, separate, independent, single, singular, divisible, distinct, different, distinctive, distinguishable, individual, particular, separable, segmented, exclusive. and also from this post: http://www.eljuridistaoposiciones.com/obligaciones-mancomuna... which I think does bear out the Becerra definition.
Bottom line: it's not quite as simple as you suggest.
Compare that with this: WHAT DOES JOINTLY AND AND SEVERALLY MEAN? DEFINE "JOINTLY". Jointly means that all of the Attorneys must work together and sign all documents together.
Jointly and Severally means that any one of the Attorneys can sign a document or dispose of an asset without the signature of the other(s) or alternatively every Attorney can sign. It becomes their choice and makes signing very convenient. http://www.wills-estates.com/poa-jointly-and-severally.html
So, clearly "mancomunadamente" must mean "jointly" in the context of a power of attorney, whereas "solidariamente" must mean "jointly and severally". However the confusing part is that "jointly" in this case means "all, acting together", whereas "jointly and severally" means "all, acting together or individually".
On the other hand, in terms of obligations and liabilities, it seems the reverse is true, at least in the case of an "obligación mancomunada," where the term refers to a liability that extends to a shared liability, but where each part is only responsible for their own share in that liability, making it therefore a "several liability".
Yes, I think you're right, but only in this case and not regarding "solidario". The definition of "mancomunado" depends on what it relates to, an obligation or an authorization. The viewpoint is key, which is why it's confusing (to me at least).
Powers of attorney, like bank account signatories, can be "joint" (mancomunado) or "joint and several" (solidario).
¿Qué diferencia hay entre Firma Solidaria y Firma Mancomunada? La Firma Solidaria significa que de forma independientemente cada interviniente en cuenta puede operar sin necesidad de firma del resto. La Firma Mancomunada implica la firma de todos los intervinientes mancomunados para poder operar con las cuentas. También existe la Firma Mixta: Firmas Solidarias con límite de importe a partir del cual es necesaria Firma Mancomunada. https://www.triodos.es/es/empresas-instituciones/contacto-y-...
You haven't given any references, though I'd be happy to be proved wrong. As far as I can see, if you want to specify "and severally", you have to include a word to that effect, such as "individualmente". "Jointly" could imply individually as well, but the Spanish doesn't specifically say that.
I didn't say it was. But I don't see any words in either question meaning "severally". That would be something like "individualmente" or "por separado".
I feel you've asked the same question twice. And we've had mancomunadamente before: https://www.proz.com/kudoz/spanish_to_english/law_contracts/... As far as I can see, this is just an example of lawyers never using one word where three will do, and conjunto, mancomunadamente and solidario all mean the same thing.
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acting JOINTLY
Explanation: In a bank account context, an account is conjunta o mancomunicada (both terms being used, often as a stock phrase "conjunta o mancomunicada") if everyone has to sign off.
Paul Merriam Local time: 03:06 Specializes in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 151